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Debates Forum

  1. Standard member shavixmir
    Guppy poo
    07 Dec '17 20:52
    Originally posted by @whodey
    Try talking to Holocaust victims dolt. It's their land of refuge. They had escaped the anti-Semitic Europeans like yourself. And no, it's not just the Nazis, it's the entire continent of oppression that lasted for centuries.

    Israel has been at war since the day of their birth, even before their birth.

    It's their bloody country, let them move their capital where they like.
    Oh cry me an effing river.
    How are camp survivors treated in Israel? Yeah... go on, tell us.

    Israel was “Hebrew” country from 1000 BC to 800 BC and parts of what’s now Israel were “Hebrew” country until 550 BC.
    And that’s bloody it.

    It’s like giving China to the Mongols, Turkey to the Greeks and the US back to the native Americans.

    Just because a certain people lived somewhere 2000+ years ago, doesn’t give them an inate right to boot out the current inhabitants.

    Doesn’t mean they can’t live there. And it doesn’t mean they should be hassled if they live anywhere else.
    But stealing the land others are living on is just murderously wrong.
  2. Subscriber moonbus
    Uber-Nerd
    07 Dec '17 22:30 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by @divegeester
    It's a question of recognition.

    What are Trump's motivations here?
    I am starting to think that that orange blimp really does want a third world war.
    The status of Jerusalem is not a matter of recognition, and that is the flaw in Trump's claim that he is merely recognising a reality. No third country can establish whose capital Jerusalem is by unilateral announcement. The status of Jerusalem has been determined (by international bodies such as the UN and accords which the U.S. brokered) to be a matter of negotiation between Israel and the Palestinians.

    If Trump's argument is allowed to stand, it would set a bad precedent; it would mean that any country could invade any other country, wait 60 years, and expect to have the land-grab legitimated.

    Trump's motivations? I suspect it is his payback to a certain donor-block which supported his presidential campaign.
  3. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    9th Grade...
    07 Dec '17 23:01 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @shavixmir
    Oh cry me an effing river.
    How are camp survivors treated in Israel? Yeah... go on, tell us.

    Israel was “Hebrew” country from 1000 BC to 800 BC and parts of what’s now Israel were “Hebrew” country until 550 BC.
    And that’s bloody it.

    It’s like giving China to the Mongols, Turkey to the Greeks and the US back to the native Americans.

    Just because ...[text shortened]... they live anywhere else.
    But stealing the land others are living on is just murderously wrong.
    Giving Judea to the Jews is like giving Ireland to the Irish, China to the Chinese, Russia to the Russians, Mongolia to the Mongols, Arabia to the Arabs or Mexico to the Mexicans.

    Jews ARE the current inhabitants. Just because some Arabs lived there last millennium doesn’t change this fact.
  4. Standard member shavixmir
    Guppy poo
    07 Dec '17 23:44
    Originally posted by @athousandyoung
    Giving Judea to the Jews is like giving Ireland to the Irish, China to the Chinese, Russia to the Russians, Mongolia to the Mongols, Arabia to the Arabs or Mexico to the Mexicans.

    Jews ARE the current inhabitants. Just because some Arabs lived there last millennium doesn’t change this fact.
    Utter hogwash.
    The majority of Jews living in Israel haven't been there 3 generations.

    Me thinks you need to read about the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, the role Gurion played in it all, the Stern gang, and the like.

    The whole international community considers the take-over of East Jerusalem as illegal and so too the settlements that keep popping up throughout Palestinian territory.

    And here's what's happening in Judea:
    The Yesha Council (Hebrew: מועצת יש"ע‎, Moatzat Yesha, a Hebrew acronym for Judea, Samaria and Gaza) is the umbrella organization of municipal councils in the West Bank.
    The actual buildings of the Israeli settlements cover only 1 percent of the West Bank, but their jurisdiction and their regional councils extend to about 42 percent of the West Bank, according to the Israeli NGO B'Tselem. Yesha Council chairman Dani Dayan disputes the figures and claims that the settlements only control 9.2 percent of the West Bank.[94]
    Between 2001 and 2007 more than 10,000 Israeli settlement units were built, while 91 permits were issued for Palestinian construction, and 1,663 Palestinian structures were demolished in Area C.[95]
    West Bank Palestinians have their cases tried in Israel's military courts while Jewish Israeli settlers living in the same occupied territory are tried in civil courts.[96] The arrangement has been described as "de facto segregation" by the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination.

    From Wikipedia (because I can't be bothered continuing this debate with you. Look up the references yourself).
  5. Subscriber no1marauder
    Caustic/Disagreeable
    08 Dec '17 01:27
    Originally posted by @athousandyoung
    Giving Judea to the Jews is like giving Ireland to the Irish, China to the Chinese, Russia to the Russians, Mongolia to the Mongols, Arabia to the Arabs or Mexico to the Mexicans.

    Jews ARE the current inhabitants. Just because some Arabs lived there last millennium doesn’t change this fact.
    Where do the Palestinians live, ATY?
  6. 08 Dec '17 04:29
    Originally posted by @wolfgang59
    They (Israel) have moved their capital to where they like.
    (In fact I think it has always been Jerusalem)

    The debate is over other countries recognising it as such,
    bearing in mind that most countries do not recognise
    the annexation of Jerusalem and consider it an occupied
    territory. (Particularly East Jerusalem)

    Recognising Jerusalem as the c ...[text shortened]... g the city to Israel. Which has probably
    been the single biggest sticking point in Peace talks.
    Why would anyone want to recognize a countries choice of their capital?

    That's just crazy.

    Washington DC? Hell no, I don't recognize it I just pretend it does not exist which makes me a happier person all round.
  7. 08 Dec '17 07:04
    Originally posted by @athousandyoung
    Giving Judea to the Jews is like giving Ireland to the Irish, China to the Chinese, Russia to the Russians, Mongolia to the Mongols, Arabia to the Arabs or Mexico to the Mexicans.

    Jews ARE the current inhabitants. Just because some Arabs lived there last millennium doesn’t change this fact.
    and what about Tibet
  8. Subscriber kmax87
    You've got Kevin
    08 Dec '17 14:26
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    "This emnity between the Arabs and the Israelites is as old as Isaac and Esau (sic) ..."
    --Divegeester

    Divegeester shows his extreme ignorance and misunderstanding of history.

    In reality, the conflict between Israeli Jews and Palestinian Arabs is a rather modern one,
    driven mainly by politics, not by supposed ancient religious hatreds. This confl ...[text shortened]... targets in Arab
    societies, hoping to incite a panic and provoke Jews there to flee to Israel.
    This is Duchess's second post on the second page and she is into incendiary mode right off the bat to Divegeester. Extremely ignorant and misunderstanding he must be denounces our Duchess. Keeping track Shav, I detect a pattern.
  9. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    9th Grade...
    08 Dec '17 15:22
    Originally posted by @shavixmir
    Utter hogwash.
    The majority of Jews living in Israel haven't been there 3 generations.

    Me thinks you need to read about the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, the role Gurion played in it all, the Stern gang, and the like.

    The whole international community considers the take-over of East Jerusalem as illegal and so too the settlements that keep popp ...[text shortened]... (because I can't be bothered continuing this debate with you. Look up the references yourself).
    How do you think the Arabs got there? Syria and Palestine used to be Roman Christian provinces.
  10. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    9th Grade...
    08 Dec '17 15:23
    Originally posted by @kquinn909
    and what about Tibet
    Tibetans
  11. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    9th Grade...
    08 Dec '17 15:25 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    Where do the Palestinians live, ATY?
    Various parts of Israel. Just like there were Jews in British Palestine. The original Palestine (pre-Roman) is the Gaza Strip, Ashdod and Ashkelon.

    http://www.bible-history.com/maps/philistines.html
  12. 08 Dec '17 15:53 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @divegeester
    Yes fair point and accurate, but he and his advisors must realise what this will trigger.

    And what does Israel actually gain - they are now having to deploy troops to fend of possible actions by the Palestinians.
    Here is an article that says this may be a good thing

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-jerusalem-decision-may-lead-111508626.html

    Tell you what, why don't you stop listening to the same voices of reason that gave Obama a Nobel Peace Prize and over saw him turning that region into an ISIS killing machine after the UN begged him to take out Gaddafi for them and consider other points of view for a change?

    Arab Spring anyone? Funny how no one ever talks about that anymore.

    Or we can do the same old thing over and over again hoping for a different result.
  13. 08 Dec '17 20:11 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @kmax87
    This is Duchess's second post on the second page and she is into incendiary mode right off the bat to Divegeester. Extremely ignorant and misunderstanding he must be denounces our Duchess. Keeping track Shav, I detect a pattern.
    Kmax87 prefers to ignore the context of the record of posts and common historical knowledge about this issue.

    I (or even other writers) have pointed out *enough times earlier* that it's a MYTH that
    the modern Israeli-Palestinian conflict must come from ANCIENT religious (or tribal)
    hatred between Arabs and Jews, as Divegeester wrongly claimed.
    This is common enough historical knowledge. Some other writers here know this fact.

    So, to sum up, Divegeester made an extremely ignorant and misinformed comment, and
    I accurately pointed out that he made an extremely ignorant and misinformed comment.
    I suspect that some pro-Israeli trolls would be ready to present flowers to Divegeester,
    if his self-esteem should need such a prop. Would Kmax87 like to do his service for him?

    As I recall, Kmax87 (who was born in South Africa, a very close ally of Israel) has admitted
    that he has grown up with a pro-Israeli bias. So, like most such Westerners, Kmax87
    apparently believes that an ignorant Westerner (like Divegeester) spews nonsense
    (which could be useful to Israel), then that ignorant Westerner must be treated gently,
    if even criticized at all. I believe that extremely ignorant comments about the Arabs
    should not be criticized any less than extremely ignorant comments about the Jews.

    Let's compare two statements:
    1) No (or almost no) Jews lived in Palestine during Biblical times.
    2) No (or almost no) Arabs lived in Palestine BEFORE Jewish settlers arrived there in the late 19th century.

    As far as I know, no Palestinian, however anti-Zionist, is ignorant enough to make the first statement.
    If anyone did, then all Westerners would instantly condemn it as extremely anti-Semitic.
    What Palestinians (and others) do, however, is dispute the Zionist claim that the Jews
    who lived in Palestine in Biblical times must be the SAME PEOPLE as the Jews who
    began arriving (mostly from Europe) in Palestine from the late 19th century onward.

    In contrast, the second statement--an absurd falsehood--has been a staple of pro-Israeli propaganda.
    In 1984, Joan Peters, an American with no scholarly credentials whatsoever, wrote a book
    claiming that the Zionist slogan of Palestine being 'a land without people (Arabs) for a
    people (Jews) without land) was about literally true. Joan Peters absurdly claimed that
    Palestine was practically empty of people (Arabs) before Jewish settlers arrived 'to make
    the desert bloom' (in Zionist legend). What was the response to her absurd lying book?
    Joan Peters received general ecstatic praise from American Jews, including many famous
    intellectuals (such as the popular historian Barbara Tuchman). Joan Peters won a
    US Jewish National Book Award. In contrast, Israeli Jewish reviews tended to dismiss
    her book as recycling old discredited Zionist propaganda, still useful to fool Americans.
    The British reviews were scathing, denouncing Joan Peters (a non-academic) for
    committing 'academic' fraud of the worst kind. 'A flimsy and worthless book.'

    My point is that there's a major Western 'double standard' between criticizing Westerners
    for extreme ignorance when their ignorance seems more useful to Israel or the Palestinians.
  14. Subscriber huckleberryhound
    Devout Agnostic.
    08 Dec '17 21:32 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @wolfgang59
    Yes I know about that,
    but previous Presidents didn't announce that they would move the Embassy to Jerusalem.

    Is he schizo?
    Oh they did. Do you want video evidence?
  15. 08 Dec '17 23:44 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @kmax87
    This is Duchess's second post on the second page and she is into incendiary mode right off the bat to Divegeester. Extremely ignorant and misunderstanding he must be denounces our Duchess. Keeping track Shav, I detect a pattern.
    Meh, it’s just frantic scraping at the bug jar ‘cos he doesn’t like me...