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  1. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    09 Dec '14 18:26
    http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/dec/09/cia-torture-report-released

    The CIA’s post-9/11 embrace of torture was brutal and ineffective – and the agency repeatedly lied about its usefulness, a milestone report by the Senate intelligence committee released on Tuesday concludes.

    After examining 20 case studies, the report found that torture “regularly resulted in fabricated information,” said committee chairwoman Dianne Feinstein, in a statement summarizing the findings. She called the torture program “a stain on our values and on our history”.

    At least 39 detainees, the committee found, experienced techniques which the Justice Department never approved. ...
    At least 17 were tortured without the approval from CIA headquarters that ex-director George Tenet assured the Justice Department would occur. And at least 26 of the CIA’s estimated 119 detainees, the committee found, were “wrongfully held”.

    Senate majority leader Harry Reid weighed in to back the report. “Today, for the first time, the American people are going to learn the full truth about torture that took place under the CIA during the Bush administration,” Reid said on the Senate floor. “The only way our country can put this episode in the past is to confront what happened.”

    “Not only is torture wrong but it doesn’t work,” said Reid. He said torture “got us nothing except a bad name”.
  2. 09 Dec '14 18:42 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by finnegan
    http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/dec/09/cia-torture-report-released

    The CIA’s post-9/11 embrace of torture was brutal and ineffective – and the agency repeatedly lied about its usefulness, a milestone report by the Senate intelligence committee released on Tuesday concludes.

    After examining 20 case studies, the report found that torture ...[text shortened]... ong but it doesn’t work,” said Reid. He said torture “got us nothing except a bad name”.
    What would you expect Reid to say? Anything to direct negativity back to Bush who hasn't been President for six years. How about Benghazi, or Fast and Furious?

    Seriously, the CIA would not be necessary if the US weren't involved militarily all over the globe. I would bet that every administration has covered for the CIA, and of course the CIA covers for itself. That's what clandestine organizations do.
  3. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    09 Dec '14 18:55 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by normbenign
    What would you expect Reid to say? Anything to direct negativity back to Bush who hasn't been President for six years. How about Benghazi, or Fast and Furious?

    Seriously, the CIA would not be necessary if the US weren't involved militarily all over the globe. I would bet that every administration has covered for the CIA, and of course the CIA covers for itself. That's what clandestine organizations do.
    I and most of the world do not give a tinker's curse about American party politics. The military industrial corporate complex to which Americans have handed over their democracy (or their less than democratic republic) is the menace most people want to point at.

    Start back to telling the world about American (US) values when (and not before) America deals properly with the vicious practices of its own agencies. America's consistent and chronic disregard for human rights is shameful.
  4. 09 Dec '14 20:24
    According to people that I've heard on the radio information we received through enhanced interrogation tactics (you may call it torture) was useful and did save lives.

    Of course the Democrats need something to change the subject after losing the last two elections in the House and Senate so they bring this up. It worked on you, we'll see what it does for others.
  5. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    09 Dec '14 20:44
    Originally posted by Eladar
    According to people that I've heard on the radio information we received through enhanced interrogation tactics (you may call it torture) was useful and did save lives.

    Of course the Democrats need something to change the subject after losing the last two elections in the House and Senate so they bring this up. It worked on you, we'll see what it does for others.
    I and most of the world do not give a tinker's curse about American party politics.

    You're apparently comfortable with the use of torture by your government agencies. Well much of the world is not.

    A lot of details from the report are emerging on twitter: e.g.

    Using religion in torture - this will appeal to the Puritan American right:
    https://twitter.com/elizabethjdias/status/542369266264440833/photo/1

    You Puritans may also appreciate the use of rectal rehydration techniques.
    https://twitter.com/attackerman/status/542354607255851009

    https://twitter.com/ewenmacaskill/status/542370544788983808
    Handcuffed CIA prisoner hanging from bar 22 hours a day for two days. "was wearing a diaper and had no access to toilet facilities".

    https://twitter.com/trevortimm/status/542357594497875968
    CIA leadership refused to punish officer who literally killed a detainee during torture session.

    Yes, you Americans are certainly upholding the values of human rights - a very city on the hill for the rest of the world to admire and emulate.
  6. 09 Dec '14 20:49
    Originally posted by finnegan
    I and most of the world do not give a tinker's curse about American party politics.

    You're apparently comfortable with the use of torture by your government agencies. Well much of the world is not.

    A lot of details from the report are emerging on twitter: e.g.

    Using religion in torture - this will appeal to the Puritan American right:
    https://tw ...[text shortened]... alues of human rights - a very city on the hill for the rest of the world to admire and emulate.
    You and most of the world can only live as you do because of the US.

    Are you grateful? No, but your life as you know it is a result of the efforts of better men than yourself.
  7. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    09 Dec '14 21:17
    Originally posted by Eladar
    You and most of the world can only live as you do because of the US.

    Are you grateful? No, but your life as you know it is a result of the efforts of better men than yourself.
    Nationalist ranting from a bigot.
  8. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    09 Dec '14 21:37 / 1 edit
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/dec/09/cia-torture-report-europe-complicity-britain

    Naturally, America's allies - notably the UK - have been complicit in many of these crimes.

    http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/dec/08/cia-rendition-report-al-qaida-senate-allies-nerves

    The full extent of the UK’s involvement in the rendition programme remains unclear however. Last year, the government shelved an official inquiry, but not before the judge in charge said that there were 27 areas in which questions about the UK’s involvement in rendition and mistreatment of detainees remained unanswered.

    That inquiry will now be handled by the intelligence and security committee, a body of MPs and peers which concluded in 2007 that the UK was not complicit in rendition, only to be flatly contradicted by a high court ruling the following year.


    It's high time this country stopped licking the US boots and discovered a spine. The so called special relationship is far to favourable to only one side .
  9. 09 Dec '14 23:00
    Originally posted by finnegan
    I and most of the world do not give a tinker's curse about American party politics. The military industrial corporate complex to which Americans have handed over their democracy (or their less than democratic republic) is the menace most people want to point at.

    Start back to telling the world about American (US) values when (and not before) America de ...[text shortened]... s of its own agencies. America's consistent and chronic disregard for human rights is shameful.
    The report conveniently comes from members of a select committee that included members of both parties and that knew what was going on at the time but did nothing to stop it.

    It is simply a convenient dump to divert attention from the current President and his failures, and misdeeds.
  10. 09 Dec '14 23:01
    Originally posted by finnegan
    Nationalist ranting from a bigot.
    Anti US ranting from an anti American bigot.
  11. Subscriber FreakyKBH
    Acquired Taste...
    09 Dec '14 23:08
    Originally posted by finnegan
    I and most of the world do not give a tinker's curse about American party politics.

    You're apparently comfortable with the use of torture by your government agencies. Well much of the world is not.

    A lot of details from the report are emerging on twitter: e.g.

    Using religion in torture - this will appeal to the Puritan American right:
    https://tw ...[text shortened]... alues of human rights - a very city on the hill for the rest of the world to admire and emulate.
    I agree with your censure, but I wonder how harshly you judge my inaction as an American in comparison to your (or your country's) inaction in light of such heavy-handed tactics as are employed by the US?
  12. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    09 Dec '14 23:15
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    I agree with your censure, but I wonder how harshly you judge my inaction as an American in comparison to your (or your country's) inaction in light of such heavy-handed tactics as are employed by the US?
    See my links in this thread to some UK reactions to this report. Far from being inactive, my repeated comments on this forum sustained over some years have been matched by contributions to political debate and protest here. I am of course but a retired citizen but I have been an activist in various ways and have produced a number of politically active and alert children, now adult and continuing the mayhem.
  13. 09 Dec '14 23:30 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by finnegan to Normbenign
    I and most of the world do not give a tinker's curse about American party politics. The military industrial corporate complex to which Americans have handed over their democracy (or their less than democratic republic) is the menace most people want to point at.

    Start back to telling the world about American (US) values when (and not befo ...[text shortened]... s of its own agencies. America's consistent and chronic disregard for human rights is shameful.
    "I and most of the world do not give a tinker's curse about American party politics."
    --Finnegan

    But many, if not most, of the Americans in this forum apparently presume
    that everyone else in the world must as obsessed as they are with partisan
    Democrat vs Republican US politics, and they tend to perceive the whole
    world through that narrow perspective. When I have notified them to the
    contrary, some Americans here have ignored everything that I write about
    my own views and kept attacking me as their preferred ludicrous stereotype.
  14. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    10 Dec '14 00:04 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by normbenign
    Anti US ranting from an anti American bigot.
    I am not a bigot. Americans have substituted propaganda for education and nationalistic fantasy for history. The version of history in which the good old US of A saved the world for freedom has a massive element of deception in it. An excellent long discussion of "The Myth of the Good War" debunks quite a lot of accounts of the two World Wars and makes this point in passing:
    But the most subtle, and most consequential, rewriting of the war was the one conducted in America – so subtle indeed that most people are unaware of it. The US journalist Dwight Macdonald famously opposed the war, but even those who disagree with that position would find it hard to deny that the running commentary he produced on its conduct was consistently illuminating. “Not the least ironical aspect of this most ironical of wars,” he wrote in early 1945, was the fact that “the war in the Pacific has always been more popular with all classes of Americans than the war in Europe.” That was entirely true, and has been almost entirely forgotten. For most of the time from December 1941 to August 1945, for most Americans, “the war” meant the war against Japan, a war that in hindsight is hard to endow with high moral purpose.

    As Macdonald said, even critics like himself recognised that in Europe “fascism was the most terrible enemy. But the war in the Pacific is a straight imperialist conflict of the classic old pattern”. The Japanese had no right to be in the Philippines or Malaya or Java. But what right did the Americans or British or Dutch? More than that, the Americans were inflamed by a racial hatred of the Japanese. This was given bizarre voice by Paul McNutt, President Roosevelt’s manpower commissioner, who advocated “the extermination of the Japanese in toto”, and practical expression by the obliteration of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
    http://www.theguardian.com/news/2014/dec/09/-sp-myth-of-the-good-war
  15. 10 Dec '14 00:23 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by finnegan to Normbenign
    I am not a bigot. Americans have substituted propaganda for education and nationalistic fantasy for history. The version of history in which the good old US of A saved the world for freedom has a massive element of deception in it. An excellent long discussion of "The Myth of the Good War" debunks quite a lot of accounts of the two World Wars ...[text shortened]... oshima and Nagasaki.[/quote]http://www.theguardian.com/news/2014/dec/09/-sp-myth-of-the-good-war
    "Americans have substituted propaganda for education and nationalistic fantasy for history."
    --Finnegan

    Unfortunately, most Americans believe their 'nationalistic fantasy' *must be* history.
    Normbenign also believes that US President Lincoln was 'evil' (quoting him)
    and solely to blame for the US Civil War. Most Americans at least reject
    that kind of rubbish (typically right-wing political ranting) from Normbenign.