Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Joined
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    14 Jun '15 05:35
    Originally posted by jimmac
    only that the me that is me feels as though it is wrong.I have created, or have been the product of my past created, the moral standard for myself. It pains me so therefore I call it wrong.
    So it is only wrong to you, but it might not be wrong to someone else?
  2. Joined
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    14 Jun '15 05:55
    Originally posted by AppleChess
    So it is only wrong to you, but it might not be wrong to someone else?
    it is only that "I" "feel" that it is wrong. And yes I suspect that it may not be wrong to someone else.( in fact in this sick world,I am sure of it) Each person draws there own " perceptions" based on there own place in space and time and all that led them to be where they are, both physically and consciously. in the here and now.
  3. Joined
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    14 Jun '15 06:011 edit
    Originally posted by jimmac
    it is only that "I" "feel" that it is wrong. And yes I suspect that it may not be wrong to someone else.( in fact in this sick world,I am sure of it) Each person draws there own " perceptions" based on there own place in space and time and all that led them to be where they are, both physically and consciously. in the here and now.
    I want to thank you for your honesty.

    There are three aspects to evil. The fact of evil, the face of evil, and the feeling of evil.

    You deny the fact of evil and you deny the face of evil by claiming it is only wrong to you but not wrong for me to cut off an infant's head. But you can't get away from the feeling of evil. You need to figure out why that is.

    I applaud you though. You have taken both Darwinian thought and Atheism to the logical extent. You can not pass judgement on anything being inherently wrong. It is only wrong as far as you feel it is wrong. Yet, we don't all feel the same.

    Some may feel it is alright to murder; some might feel it is alright to rape; others may feel differently.

    It is as a said, before, "Some cultures prefer to love their neighbor others prefer to eat their neighbor. Do you have a personal preference."

    Your morality is mere personal preference. Therefore, you have no inherent right to condemn the holocaust, or a man who blows up a school, or a child who steals a dollar item from the school.

    But you can't get away from the lingering sense of evil. Do you really want to accept this as truth? That it is mere feelings?

    Christianity says there is an absolute transcendent code of ethics not established by us but by God. Hence, it is not mere feeling although that goes along with it. You cannot get rid of your conscience. God placed that in you. But your mind has driven you to, I say this with kindness, madness. But your emotions still speak truth to you.

    You need to search out why your emotions say what they do.

    Again, I appreciate your honesty. 🙂

    Edit: even you though, with your belief still comment, 'in fact in this sick world'. But is this not a projection of your own personal belief about the world? How can it be sick if it is truly just individual preference? I'm trying to get you to challenge that view. It allows anything and everything to go.
  4. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    14 Jun '15 06:30
    Originally posted by AppleChess
    Your view is overly simplistic. To not see that a disbelief in God has consequences is for you to close your eyes to obvious evidence. It is really an untenable way to live.

    .
    You really are an arrogant, pompous ass aren't you?
    Untenable?!?!
  5. Joined
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    14 Jun '15 06:32
    Originally posted by AppleChess
    I want to thank you for your honesty.

    There are three aspects to evil. The fact of evil, the face of evil, and the feeling of evil.

    You deny the fact of evil and you deny the face of evil by claiming it is only wrong to you but not wrong for me to cut off an infant's head. But you can't get away from the feeling of evil. [b]You need to figure out ...[text shortened]... eference? I'm trying to get you to challenge that view. It allows anything and everything to go.
    my emotions say what they do because , as stated before, I am only a product of all that has gone before me. also "I" do "pass judgement" in a sense. But it is my own and I will defend my right to pass those self determined judgments. As do most people. The lingering sense of "evil" that I may feel is reserved for situations, rather than individuals( though, not exclusively). You are right in that I do not "believe" in "evil, but I am happy to name it none the less, if you know what I mean.

    The code of ethics established, as per the bible, are, I believe, a good foundation for a code to follow. But I was sent to Sunday school so that is a part of my journey.

    Explain why I "need" to search out why my emotions say what they say when I feel that I already understand???

    It is my belief system that perceives the world to be "sick" therefore I name it so. And it is inescapable that it is my individual preference to name it so. Sadly anything and everything does seem to go, and your " belief system" may be an answer, but it is just that. A "belief system". The world is broken, that is plain to all but the blind and ( sadly) there are to many of them out there.

    I am so not offended by your reference to "madness", but I am not sure in what sense you mean.

    I understand your post comes from a place of compassion, sorry I cannot see what you see. That is literally sorry. I would dearly love to see what you see, but alas I do not
  6. Joined
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    14 Jun '15 07:141 edit
    Originally posted by AppleChess
    Your view [that atheism is only about disbelief in deities] is overly simplistic.
    How can you not figure this out for yourself? This is one of the simplest concepts you can hope to come across in life. It doesn't get any simpler than this, so it can't possibly be an over simplification. You can't ask an atheist where atheists as a group get their world views and values from, any more than you can ask a theist to explain the views of all other theists. There are as many answers as there are ideologies, (a)theism in itself is not an ideology.
  7. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    14 Jun '15 07:531 edit
    Originally posted by AppleChess

    Christianity says there is an absolute transcendent code of ethics not established by us but by God. Hence, it is not mere feeling although that goes along with it. You cannot get rid of your conscience. God placed that in you. But your mind has driven you to, I say this with kindness, madness. But your emotions still speak truth to you.
    First of all, apologies for being selective in the paragraph i have chosen to respond to. (Have come to this thread late and a lot has already been said).

    As an atheist, naturally i dispute your assertion that my conscience was placed in me by a God i don't believe in. I think you do mankind a huge disservice in alluding that any inner core of goodness in man has to have an external source. - I think we are a sum of our own experiences, influences and upbringing. Atheists are not a collective. We share nothing but an absence of God in our lives. I know you think we need to fill that void, but i say to you 'there is no void to fill.' My conscience is man made. I have come to the concept of right and wrong all on my own, no external assistance required. I have evolved.
  8. Cape Town
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    14 Jun '15 08:49
    Originally posted by AppleChess
    It has been commonly asserted by Christian apologists...
    It is a well known fact that the assertions of Christian apologists are typically wrong.

    Now, evolution can in many ways answer origins to an extent,
    No, I don't think it can. Evolution really only tells us about how life works and has worked in the past. It doesn't deal with where life came from (abiogenesis) or where the universe came from or how the universe started.

    but can it really satisfy meaning or morality or destiny? I don't believe so.
    Quite correct. Of course it can't. It's not meant to. The theory of Gravity can't either.

    So I'm looking for you professed Atheists/ Evolutionists to leave the realm of science a bit or use science if you think you can and candidly discuss meaning, morality, and destiny.
    I am atheist. I am only evolutionist insofar as I understand the relevant science. Neither evolution nor atheism are religions or belief systems.
    I am not sure what you mean by 'meaning' or 'destiny'. Perhaps you could expand on what you are looking for.
    Morality is quite a large topic, but basically it boils down to one thing: how do you treat others.
    I think that we all have an intuitive understanding of morality and although you probably claim you get your morality from your religion, I can assure you that you do not and could probably prove it.

    This is afterall what I do for a living. 😀
    Clearly not. You don't seem to have had a good conversation with an atheist ever. Most likely what you do for a living is talking to fellow theists. That is not the same thing at all.

    What do you non-Christians do with that sense of longing.
    What sense of longing?

    Surely you want to find meaning, and if you don't then why bother with anything?
    I find meaning in many things and activities. I don't think any of it comes from a 'framework'.
  9. Joined
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    14 Jun '15 08:55
    Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
    I have come to the concept of right and wrong all on my own, no external assistance required. I have evolved.[/b]
    here's the rub, see, as I have previously stated, I believe that we do NOTHING on our own, You ( I believe) did not, nor could you have, come to ANY conclusion, on your own. it is ALL external influences. I happen to believe that a God is not an external influence, though a believe in one is powerful. If you believe in self, then you must believe in spirit,( I feel), then you must be open to other things, yes??
  10. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    14 Jun '15 10:07
    Originally posted by jimmac
    here's the rub, see, as I have previously stated, I believe that we do NOTHING on our own, You ( I believe) did not, nor could you have, come to ANY conclusion, on your own. it is ALL external influences. I happen to believe that a God is not an external influence, though a believe in one is powerful. If you believe in self, then you must believe in spirit,( I feel), then you must be open to other things, yes??
    Sorry, i think you misunderstand my position. Of course we are shaped by external influences. As previously stated; 'I think we are a sum of our own experiences, influences and upbringing.' But the conclusions made are certainly my own. They have not been put in me by a supreme God or any other external power.
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    14 Jun '15 11:311 edit
    Originally posted by C Hess
    How can you not figure this out for yourself? This is one of the simplest concepts you can hope to come across in life. It doesn't get any simpler than this, so it can't possibly be an over simplification. You can't ask an atheist where atheists as a group get their world views and values from, any more than you can ask a theist to explain the views of all ot ...[text shortened]... ists. There are as many answers as there are ideologies, (a)theism in itself is not an ideology.
    Oh but it is! its an intellectual stance.
  12. Joined
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    14 Jun '15 11:46
    Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
    Sorry, i think you misunderstand my position. Of course we are shaped by external influences. As previously stated; 'I think we are a sum of our own experiences, influences and upbringing.' But the conclusions made are certainly my own. They have not been put in me by a supreme God or any other external power.
    it is not so much misunderstanding yours as re-iterating mine.I feel that we only believe that we make choices and in that sense your conclusions are not your own, but I realize that I am being pedantic. I am obliged by the circumstance of my existence to "make choices". I believe that I am totally pre-programed. That situation does not bother me in the least. what is,is. believing in it or not , or being right or not,changes nothing.
  13. Germany
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    14 Jun '15 14:45
    Originally posted by AppleChess
    I've noticed in my life that quite often Christians find themselves defending their beliefs, and that is no less true than this forum so far. I'm fine with this, needs to be done. But I like to go on the offensive a bit too. Afterall, it's only fair and an Atheist ought to be able to answer for themselves too just as a Christian does.

    So, I'm just goi ...[text shortened]... just an example-I'm looking for you to explain to me how you get those four from your framework.
    Atheism is the lack of a belief in the supernatural. It is not a "worldview" and you will find varying opinions about the points you mentioned among atheists. Atheism also has nothing to do with evolution, and evolution does not explain "origins" except for providing an explanation as to how humans (as opposed to, say, life, the Earth or the Universe) came into existence.
  14. Joined
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    14 Jun '15 14:55
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Oh but it is! its an intellectual stance.
    It obviously isn't an intellectual stance. Either you believe in deities (theist) or you don't (atheist).
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    14 Jun '15 15:351 edit
    Originally posted by C Hess
    It obviously isn't an intellectual stance. Either you believe in deities (theist) or you don't (atheist).
    what? and you have not adopted either stance through a process of evaluation? come come Mr Hess, please be reasonable, it most certainly is an intellectual stance!
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