Please turn on javascript in your browser to play chess.
Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. 29 Nov '12 22:59
    But what about the 4,000-year-old bond between the people of Israel and the land of Israel? I need to check my property law book.

    UNITED NATIONS (AP) — The United Nations voted overwhelmingly Thursday to recognize a Palestinian state, a long-sought victory for the Palestinians but an embarrassing diplomatic defeat for the United States. The resolution upgrading the Palestinians' status to a nonmember observer state at the United Nations was approved by a more than two-thirds majority of the 193-member world body — a vote of 138-9, with 41 abstentions.

    A Palestinian flag was quickly unfurled on the floor of the General Assembly, behind the Palestinian delegation. In the West Bank city of Ramallah, hundreds crowded into the main square waved Palestinian flags and chanted "God is great." Others who had crowded around outdoor screens and television sets to watch the vote hugged, honked and set off fireworks before dancing in the streets. Real independence, however, remains an elusive dream until the Palestinians negotiate a peace deal with the Israelis, who warned that the General Assembly action will only delay a lasting solution. Israel still controls the West Bank, east Jerusalem and access to Gaza, and it accused the Palestinians of bypassing negotiations with the campaign to upgrade their U.N. status.

    The United States immediately criticized the historic vote. "Today's unfortunate and counterproductive resolution places further obstacles in the path peace," U.N. Ambassador Susan Rice said. And U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton called the vote "unfortunate" and "counterproductive." The United States and Israel voted against recognition, joined by Canada, the Czech Republic, Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru, Palau and Panama. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called the speech by Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas to the General Assembly shortly before the vote "defamatory and venomous," saying it was "full of mendacious propaganda" against Israel. He called the vote meaningless.
  2. 29 Nov '12 23:00
    Abbas had told the General Assembly that it was "being asked today to issue the birth certificate of Palestine." Abbas said the vote is the last chance to save the two-state solution.

    After the vote, Netanyahu said the UN move violated past agreements between Israel and the Palestinians and that Israel would act accordingly, without elaborating what steps it might take. Just before the vote, Israel's U.N. ambassador, Ron Prosor, warned the General Assembly that "the Palestinians are turning their backs on peace" and that the U.N. can't break the 4,000-year-old bond between the people of Israel and the land of Israel.

    The vote had been certain to succeed, with most of the member states sympathetic to the Palestinians. Several key countries, including France, this week announced they would support the move to elevate the Palestinians from the status of U.N. observer to nonmember observer state.


    http://www.chron.com/news/world/article/UN-vote-recognizes-state-of-Palestine-US-objects-4075612.php
  3. 29 Nov '12 23:05
    Originally posted by moon1969
    But what about the 4,000-year-old bond between the people of Israel and the land of Israel? I need to check my property law book.

    UNITED NATIONS (AP) — The United Nations voted overwhelmingly Thursday to recognize a Palestinian state, a long-sought victory for the Palestinians but an embarrassing diplomatic defeat for the United States. The resol ...[text shortened]... of mendacious propaganda" against Israel. He called the vote meaningless.
    You should read these books by Shlomo Sand, an Israeli Jewish scholar:
    _The Invention of the Jewish People
    _The Invention of the Land of Israel: From Holy Land to Homeland
  4. 29 Nov '12 23:39
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    You should read these books by Shlomo Sand, an Israeli Jewish scholar:
    _The Invention of the Jewish People
    _The Invention of the Land of Israel: From Holy Land to Homeland
    Ok. I saw you had a list of suggested books in another thread. Thanks.

    I wonder if the Jewish people still have their deeds from 4000 years ago, or did they just swat kids with sticks like the old English did.
  5. Standard member sasquatch672
    Don't Like It Leave
    29 Nov '12 23:43
    Originally posted by moon1969
    Ok. I saw you had a list of suggested books in another thread. Thanks.

    I wonder if the Jewish people still have their deeds from 4000 years ago, or did they just swat kids with sticks like the old English did.
    I wonder if you'll be this flippant when Iran starts slinging nukes at Israel. I wonder if you'll find the same glee. My guess is yes.
  6. Standard member spruce112358
    Democracy Advocate
    30 Nov '12 00:12
    Originally posted by sasquatch672
    I wonder if you'll be this flippant when Iran starts slinging nukes at Israel. I wonder if you'll find the same glee. My guess is yes.
    Yes, Iran really thinks that Israel's Big Brother would not sling enough nukes in return to turn that whole nation into a smooth, glassy slag heap. They are that crazy and hate living that much.

    A nation that was a great civilization when Israel was populated by wild-eyed, long-bearded goat-herders has that little sense of history.
  7. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    30 Nov '12 00:20
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    You should read these books by Shlomo Sand, an Israeli Jewish scholar:
    _The Invention of the Jewish People
    _The Invention of the Land of Israel: From Holy Land to Homeland
    I have read the first of those books and it certainly trashes into dust the arguments for a Jewish state.

    I no longer endorse the two state solution for Palestine. The Palestinians get a lousy deal and their proposed state is not viable without extensive exchanges with their dominant neighbour, Israel. Nor have the Zionists shown any respect for their rights nor made any effort to ensure that they might have a viable future.

    There is only one state, it is totally dominated by the Israelis, and it is time they recognised their obligations to the Palestinians who are at least as much part of that land as they are. What we are observing is nothing less than apartheid and, like South Africa, the attempt to set up impoverished homelands for the Palestinian people. Time to reject a separate state and demand civil rights for all within the one nation, an end to apartheid and an end to racist policies.
  8. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    30 Nov '12 00:26
    Originally posted by finnegan
    I have read the first of those books and it certainly trashes into dust the arguments for a Jewish state.

    I no longer endorse the two state solution for Palestine. The Palestinians get a lousy deal and their proposed state is not viable without extensive exchanges with their dominant neighbour, Israel. Nor have the Zionists shown any respect for their r ...[text shortened]... d civil rights for all within the one nation, an end to apartheid and an end to racist policies.
    Why in the world would you want to force two peoples who clearly want autonomy to live together in one country?
  9. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    30 Nov '12 00:31 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by moon1969
    But what about the 4,000-year-old bond between the people of Israel and the land of Israel? I need to check my property law book.

    UNITED NATIONS (AP) — The United Nations voted overwhelmingly Thursday to recognize a Palestinian state, a long-sought victory for the Palestinians but an embarrassing diplomatic defeat for the United States. The resol of mendacious propaganda" against Israel. He called the vote meaningless.
    Who exactly made the 4,000 year old argument? I, for one, think that any argument about Jews having the land in Biblical times is complete irrelevant (as is the argument about Palestinians having the land before 1948 - which they didn't in any case, of course).

    The two peoples are there. They both want autonomy. They both deserve autonomy and security. What was 7 decades or 7 centuries ago is irrelevant.

    As for today's vote, it's fine. If it makes the Palestinians feel good about themselves and nudges the parties towards peace talks, all the better. We all know there's no Palestinian state without a deal with Israel. That's the only thing I'm interested in seeing - a deal that gives both people autonomy and security. If today's vote causes Israel to dig in its heels or the Palestinians to conclude that negotiations with Israel are unnecessary... THEN it's dangerous.
  10. 30 Nov '12 00:31 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by sasquatch672
    I wonder if you'll be this flippant when Iran starts slinging nukes at Israel. I wonder if you'll find the same glee. My guess is yes.
    I, like Secretary of State Clinton (the former Senator from New York), am a big supporter of Israel, and would be willing to militarily anhillate Iran off the face of the map including decimating innocent men, women, and children, to prevent Iran from having a nuclear weapon.

    I just find it interesting that the Jewish people show up in the Middle East after WWII, and say hey our ancestors use to own this land a few thousand years ago, so it's ours, so get out. Kind of like a native American knocking at your door, and saying hey my ancestors used to have a hut here, so get out.
  11. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    30 Nov '12 00:36
    Originally posted by moon1969
    I, like Secretary of State Clinton (the former Senator from New York), am a big supporter of Israel, and would be willing to militarily anhillate Iran off the face of the map including decimating innocent men, women, and children, to prevent rtan from having a nuclear weapon.

    I just find it interesting that the Jewish people show up in the Middle East af ...[text shortened]... merican knocking at your door, and saying hey my ancestors used to have a hut here, so get out.
    They didn't exactly just show up after WWII. Many of them were there long before that, though it's true that many did move in after the war.

    There was no Palestine in 1947. It was occupied by Britain as it had been for decades. Britain, as occupying power, allowed Jews (in many cases) to move to that area. Yes, Palestinians were a majority at the time in the region, but once the British were withdrawing, diving the territory into two autonomous states was easily the logical thing to do. You can argue that Israel got too much of the land (though much of the land Israel got was barely inhabitable desert), but that's semantics.

    I, like Secretary of State Clinton (the former Senator from New York), am a big supporter of Israel, and would be willing to militarily anhillate Iran off the face of the map including decimating innocent men, women, and children, to prevent rtan from having a nuclear weapon.


    Wow. That's a grave statement.
  12. 30 Nov '12 00:52 / 4 edits
    Originally posted by sh76
    I, like Secretary of State Clinton (the former Senator from New York), am a big supporter of Israel, and would be willing to militarily anhillate Iran off the face of the map including decimating innocent men, women, and children, to prevent rtan from having a nuclear weapon.


    Wow. That's a grave statement.
    I hope there is a better way obviously, and I sympathize much with the Iranian people, and know there is much talk in Iran about being more western and having religious and secular freedom, especially among the young. The proliferation in international communication for the average Iranian Joe has helped. But still have the incredible religious brainwashing throughout Iranian society. Yet, while the Iranian people hated the Shah, the majority now realize they have it worse under a religious fundamentalist theorcracy.

    One of my best friends is Iranian American. He and his family fled Teheran in 1979 to the US when the Revolutionary Guard took over their house in Teheran. When we were office mates at a chemical plant in the late 80s, he told me a lot of stories about Iran. A good engineer and an absolute stand-up guy, and he gave me guidance at work, as he was about 10 years older than me.

    I despise the Iranian leadership, so much, especially the all-powerful religious leadership. While there have been a couple of bright spots in the quasi-secular Iranian leadership over the years, I just absolutely despise the Iranian leadership. The Iranian people may very welll ultimately pay a heavy price for their suckass leadership. I hope not.
  13. 30 Nov '12 01:00
    Originally posted by moon1969
    Ok. I saw you had a list of suggested books in another thread. Thanks.

    I wonder if the Jewish people still have their deeds from 4000 years ago, or did they just swat kids with sticks like the old English did.
    At the risk of oversimplifying too much what Shlomo Sand wrote, it's a huge
    stretch to argue that the Jews of 20th century Europe are the 'same people' as
    the Jews of Biblical Palestine. Indeed, perhaps only a small minority of the Jews
    of 20th century Europe were descended from the Jews of Biblical Palestine.

    Let's suppose that about 2000 years from now, assuming the United States still
    exists, some African Americans were to argue that they deserve reparations from
    the US government on account of slavery in US history, even though only a small
    minority of them could show that any of their ancestors were slaves. Fair enough?
  14. 30 Nov '12 01:03
    Originally posted by spruce112358
    Yes, Iran really thinks that Israel's Big Brother would not sling enough nukes in return to turn that whole nation into a smooth, glassy slag heap. They are that crazy and hate living that much.

    A nation that was a great civilization when Israel was populated by wild-eyed, long-bearded goat-herders has that little sense of history.
    The Jews particularly honoured Cyrus the Great of Persia as a righteous king
    on account of his policies of tolerance toward them.
  15. 30 Nov '12 01:16 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by sh76 to finnegan
    Why in the world would you want to force two peoples who clearly want autonomy to live together in one country?
    Actually, long ago the PLO proposed that everyone--Jews, Arabs, Druze,
    and others--peacefully live together in one secular state of Palestine wherein
    everyone should have equal rights. But most Israeli Jews rejected that offer
    because they were afraid that a higher Palestinian birth rate would lead eventually
    to the Jews becoming a minoity in this secular state. Most Zionists seem intent
    upon preserving the 'essential Jewish character' of Israel above all else.

    The classic Zionist dilemma is what to do if (or when) the Arabs who are Israeli
    citizens (albeit second-class citizens at best) begin to approach the numbers of
    Jews who are Israeli citizens. If that happens, should Israel simply end, or at
    least restrict, the political (voting) rights of non-Jews who are Israeli citizens?
    Israel then would have to choose between being a democracy with a potential
    non-Jewish majority or becoming--even more than today--an apartheid state
    where the Jewish 'Herrenvolk' rule over non-Jews without a pretense of equality.
    Given that Israel was apartheid South Africa's closest ally, I suspect that most
    Israeli Jews would prefer to practise apartheid than to give equal voting rights
    to a potential non-Jewish majority of Israeli citizens.