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Debates Forum

  1. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    06 Jan '15 15:19
    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/jan/06/-sp-universal-healthcare-the-affordable-dream-amartya-sen

    Amartya Sen has contributed an excellent discussion piece today about the experience of introducing universal health care in unexpected places, including Rwanda, Bangladesh and Thailand, as well as some states in India. He successfully tackles many of the standard protests from neoliberals who fear socialised health care as an infringement on their right to be selfish, miserable, acquisitive bstrds.

    He notices that health care is labour intensive, but as a result far less expensive in developing countries where wages are low. It has to be affordable, but whatever the country can afford, it is more effectively and equitably delivered through universal coverage. Markets allocate health benefits very inefficiently he found, for reasons including the asymmetrical flow of information. Private health care, indeed, operates more effectively alongside universal care, because without (public sector) competition, people have no choice and so it has less incentive to improve. Health is a collective good - it can cost far less to cover more people. Infectious diseases certainly do not confine their impact to the poor - within or between countries - while good primary care and preventive programmes can avert far more costly treatment later in the disease cycle.

    He shows that universal health care not only delivers superior health benefits but also directly and measurably enhances the economic performance of the entire community, state or country. He cites the example of the Indian state of Kerala which transformed from one of the poorest to one of the most economically successful states in India as a result of introducing universal health care and universal schooling.

    I like his quote from Paul Farmer: "Claims that we live in an era of limited resources fail to mention that these resources happen to be less limited now than ever before in human history."
  2. 06 Jan '15 15:40
    ....socialised health care as an infringement on their right to be selfish, miserable, acquisitive bstrds.

    This is where I stopped reading.
  3. 06 Jan '15 15:48
    Originally posted by finnegan
    Markets allocate health benefits very inefficiently [...]
    Well, yeah. Also, Germany lost WW2.
  4. 06 Jan '15 17:17
    Originally posted by techsouth
    [b]....socialised health care as an infringement on their right to be selfish, miserable, acquisitive bstrds.

    This is where I stopped reading.[/b]
    I read on, but those words made the conclusion inevitable. Poor people wanting free services are just needy, but still responding to the natural and real first interest of all humans, themselves. Health care workers, are expected to be absent rational and natural self interest.

    It's the same old story, the owner of an enterprise is "selfish" after having an idea, putting his money and time up and desiring a reward (profits). His selfish interests are no more or less valid than those of his employees who want more pay, but who are often cast as selfless and needy by comparison.

    The notion that government, no matter how "democratic" can better allocate services and benefits than a truly free market is laughable. It is a miracle when they even get it close to right.
  5. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    06 Jan '15 18:37
    Originally posted by normbenign
    I read on, but those words made the conclusion inevitable. Poor people wanting free services are just needy, but still responding to the natural and real first interest of all humans, themselves. Health care workers, are expected to be absent rational and natural self interest.

    It's the same old story, the owner of an enterprise is "selfish" after h ...[text shortened]... ts than a truly free market is laughable. It is a miracle when they even get it close to right.
    .... evidence notwithstanding.
  6. 06 Jan '15 19:15
    Originally posted by finnegan
    .... evidence notwithstanding.
    What evidence? Wage slaves have done nothing to create their jobs, yet demonize the owner who did.

    People lacking expensive health care insurance want care for nothing. Sure I understand that, but where does that leave the people who put in the effort to assure they could pay for either insurance or the care? Should the brother be the prodigal son's keeper?
  7. Standard member DeepThought
    Losing the Thread
    06 Jan '15 20:00
    Originally posted by normbenign
    What evidence? Wage slaves have done nothing to create their jobs, yet demonize the owner who did.

    People lacking expensive health care insurance want care for nothing. Sure I understand that, but where does that leave the people who put in the effort to assure they could pay for either insurance or the care? Should the brother be the prodigal son's keeper?
    But the model of a private healthcare system is the US one and it is the most expensive in the World. For all its faults the NHS is far more efficient than what you have. Those people who've "put in the work" would actually save about $4,000 a year if you had some sort of nationalised health care system.
  8. 06 Jan '15 20:18
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    But the model of a private healthcare system is the US one and it is the most expensive in the World. For all its faults the NHS is far more efficient than what you have. Those people who've "put in the work" would actually save about $4,000 a year if you had some sort of nationalised health care system.
    Normbenign is well aware of the facts - they have been pointed out to him repeatedly. But I believe that normbenign prefers to pretend that the facts aren't there as they clash with his religious beliefs.
  9. 06 Jan '15 20:26 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra to DeepThought
    Normbenign is well aware of the facts - they have been pointed out to him repeatedly. But I believe that normbenign prefers to pretend that the facts aren't there as they clash with his religious beliefs.
    "I believe that Normbengin prefers to pretend that the facts aren't there as
    they clash with his religious beliefs."
    --KazetNagorra

    Normbenign claims to be an atheist (having converted on account of Ayn Rand).
    Normbenign always prefers to deny facts that contradict his ideological obsessions.
    After his lies have been refuted (again) in one thread, Normbenign typically
    falls silent for a while--hoping for memories to fade enough--and then
    begins reiterating those lies (perhaps repackaged) in another thread.
  10. 06 Jan '15 20:58 / 1 edit
    This is where I stopped reading.
    gee just when you were on the verge of learning something.
  11. 06 Jan '15 21:03
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie to TechSouth
    gee just when you were on the verge of learning something.
    I suspect you (RobbieCarrobie) are being too optimistic.
    Many people have little or no capacity to learn because they have little
    or no willingness to learn.
  12. 06 Jan '15 21:13 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    I suspect you (RobbieCarrobie) are being too optimistic.
    Many people have little or no capacity to learn because they have little
    or no willingness to learn.
    Hmmm I find the problem is that life is too short to learn all the things we would want to learn, like how to play the saxophone, or learn Karate, or do historical research. These disciplines take many hours of study and even years.
  13. 06 Jan '15 21:19 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by normbenign
    What evidence? Wage slaves have done nothing to create their jobs, yet demonize the owner who did.

    People lacking expensive health care insurance want care for nothing. Sure I understand that, but where does that leave the people who put in the effort to assure they could pay for either insurance or the care? Should the brother be the prodigal son's keeper?
    This is simply a lie. People have no aversion to paying taxes because they want to live in a society that cares for the sick universally and in a society that is educated. No one I know expects these things for nothing.
  14. 06 Jan '15 21:21
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Hmmm I find the problem is that life is too short to learn all the things we would want to learn, like how to play the saxophone, or learn Karate, or do historical research. These disciplines take many hours of study and even years.
    I met a white American woman who claimed that, after several weeks of casual
    learning, she had become completely fluent in Mandarin Chinese and could
    easily pass as a native speaker. She claimed that all her Chinese acquaintances
    had reassured her of this fact.

    "...how to ... do historical research. These disciplines take many hours
    of study and even years."
    --Robbie Carrobie

    Whereas in this forum, some ignorant writers find the first thing that pops
    up on the internet about a historical subject and instantly presume they
    must understand much more than I do about it even if I have spent years
    studying it using scholarly sources.
  15. 06 Jan '15 21:59 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    I met a white American woman who claimed that, after several weeks of casual
    learning, she had become completely fluent in Mandarin Chinese and could
    easily pass as a native speaker. She claimed that all her Chinese acquaintances
    had reassured her of this fact.

    "...how to ... do historical research. These disciplines take many hours
    of study an ...[text shortened]... nd much more than I do about it even if I have spent years
    studying it using scholarly sources.
    As someone who has learned to speak another language with a different script I find her claims ludicrous. I know people who have learnt Chinese, both Mandarin and Cantonese, it took them years. The script itself is fascinating because its made up of several different elements which when put together form an idea (although i suspect that you are aware of this anyway) Spoken Cantonese/Mandarin i have heard is also very difficult because intonation plays a more prominent role in emphasising a particular meaning. I always greet the lady in my local shop with the words Lay Ho mah!

    I apologise to Finnegan for this diversion, no hijacking intended.