Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Zugzwang
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    31 Aug '18 05:37
    President Trump's closest ally among foreign leaders may be Israel's Prime Minister Netanyahu.
    US policy aims toward forcing the Palestinians into abject surrender to Israel.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/30/the-guardian-view-on-trumps-palestinian-policy-setting-fire-to-the-ground

    "The Guardian view on Trump’s Palestinian policy: setting fire to the ground.
    The Trump administration is the first in history to uncritically back the
    government of Israel while waging diplomatic war on the Palestinians.
    This is a recipe for chaos."

    "His [President Trump's] team is putting together a take-it-or-leave-it proposal
    designed to please the most rightwing government in Israeli history."

    When pushed to the brink of national extinction, the Palestinians will have
    nothing more to lose by striking back and taking as many of their Israeli
    or American oppressors as possible with them to final destruction.
  2. Standard membershavixmir
    Guppy poo
    Sewers of Holland
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    31 Aug '18 07:06
    Neither you Simon, nor the fifty thousand
    nor the Romans, nor the Jews, nor Judas, nor the twelve
    nor the priest nor the scribes
    nor doomed Jerusalem itself
    understand what power is
    understand what glory is
    understand at all, understand at all

    if you knew all that I knew my poor Jerusalem
    you'd see the truth, but you love a lie
    but you live a lie
    while you live your troubles are many, poor Jerusalem
    to conquer death you only have to die
    you only have to die

    - Jesus in Jesus Christ Superstar -
  3. Behind the scenes
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    31 Aug '18 14:08
    Originally posted by @shavixmir
    Neither you Simon, nor the fifty thousand
    nor the Romans, nor the Jews, nor Judas, nor the twelve
    nor the priest nor the scribes
    nor doomed Jerusalem itself
    understand what power is
    understand what glory is
    understand at all, understand at all

    if you knew all that I knew my poor Jerusalem
    you'd see the truth, but you love a lie
    but you live a l ...[text shortened]... conquer death you only have to die
    you only have to die

    - Jesus in Jesus Christ Superstar -
    I remember seeing this film in high school. I still like it. 🙂
  4. Zugzwang
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    31 Aug '18 19:27
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/31/trumps-un-funding-move-risks-damage-to-palestine-israel-and-us

    "Trump's UN funding move risks damage to Palestine, Israel and US
    No one will be immune from the political consequences of severe cuts to Palestinian aid"

    "Various overlapping theories are in circulation. The first is that Kushner and his team believe
    a browbeaten Palestinian leadership can be bullied into a deal on the White House’s terms – an assessment few experts endorse.

    A second theory is predicated on a reading that Kushner and his team are more realistic,
    anticipating the failure of Trump’s boast that he can secure the “deal of the century”
    between Israelis and Palestinians. In that reading, knowing there is no deal to be won,
    the Trump administration’s moves are seen instead as a destructive resetting of the long-understood
    parameters of US foreign policy in the Middle East, including how a peace deal might look

    Then there is a final hypothesis: that this is nothing more than crude political signalling
    ahead of the US midterm elections in November, throwing pro-Israel US Christian evangelicals,
    to whom Trump recently appealed for support in a closed-door meeting, another bone
    after his recognition of Jerusalem."

    "What is missing from all these interpretations, however, is any evidence of much understanding
    of the driving forces in Palestinian politics and where they overlap with security issues."
  5. Zugzwang
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    31 Aug '18 19:351 edit
    The USA hopes to starve the Palestinians into abject surrender to Israel.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/03/donald-trump-moves-step-closer-destruction-middle-east-peace-process

    "Why Trump’s funding threat to Palestinians is even more dangerous than Jerusalem move
    The US president is treating the Middle East peace process like a Manhattan property deal that he can bully to the table."

    "It’s over,” one Palestinian official told the Guardian. “By tweeting that he [President Trump]
    has taken Jerusalem ‘off the table’ as an issue he has admitted that US diplomats were
    lying when they said Jerusalem’s status has not been decided. Instead he is trying to
    use blackmail and a blame game against the Palestinians. What he is admitting is there
    is no peace process and no peace plan.”

    “His mistake is that he thinks this is one of the deals he is familiar with. But the Palestinians are not
    a weak company to be taken over. He is ignoring the issue of dignity, which people are prepared to die for.”

    People are not willing to die to stop a corporate takeover. But many, if not most, Palestinians
    would prefer to die fighting Israel (and the USA) rather than surrender and accept perpetual servitude.
  6. Behind the scenes
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    01 Sep '18 02:18
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    President Trump's closest ally among foreign leaders may be Israel's Prime Minister Netanyahu.
    US policy aims toward forcing the Palestinians into abject surrender to Israel.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/30/the-guardian-view-on-trumps-palestinian-policy-setting-fire-to-the-ground

    "The Guardian view on Trump’s Palestinian polic ...[text shortened]... ing as many of their Israeli
    or American oppressors as possible with them to final destruction.
    And your solution to bringing peace to the middle east is -

    What?
  7. Subscriberdivegeester
    Leave Means Leave
    Voting not marching!
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    01 Sep '18 03:072 edits
    Originally posted by @mchill
    And your solution to bringing peace to the middle east is -

    What?
    Send them lots of Guardian links.
  8. SubscriberTom Wolsey
    Aficionado of Prawns
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    01 Sep '18 03:40
    It is said, "If the Palestinians laid down their weapons, there would be no war.
    If the Israelis laid down their weapons, there would be no Israel."
  9. Standard membershavixmir
    Guppy poo
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    01 Sep '18 03:47
    Originally posted by @tom-wolsey
    It is said, "If the Palestinians laid down their weapons, there would be no war.
    If the Israelis laid down their weapons, there would be no Israel."
    It’s a fact that no matter what the Palestinians do, there’s constantly less Palestine.
  10. Standard membershavixmir
    Guppy poo
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    01 Sep '18 03:581 edit
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/31/trumps-un-funding-move-risks-damage-to-palestine-israel-and-us

    "Trump's UN funding move risks damage to Palestine, Israel and US
    No one will be immune from the political consequences of severe cuts to Palestinian aid"

    "Various overlapping theories are in circulation. The first is that Kushner and his t ...[text shortened]... ng
    of the driving forces in Palestinian politics and where they overlap with security issues."
    The Guardian seems a little naieve on the Middle-Eastern issue and fails to see the larger picture.

    The US actively supports Saudi-Arabia and Israel.
    Their blowing up of the Iran nuclear deal, who they support in the Yemen, the actions in Syria: it’s part of large-scale anti-Iran (shi-ite) and pro-Israel policy.

    Hardly likely trump is the driving force behind an actual coordinated set of mechanisms; he’s just the putz, the front man.

    Clinton was very anti-Iran as well. Her policies would have been rather similar; albeit more subtle.

    One should wonder why the US is so rabidly anti-Iranian; so much so that they’re willing to support some of the most religiously mental people / groups in the world.

    Who’s got whom over a barrel?
  11. Zugzwang
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    01 Sep '18 18:24
    Originally posted by @shavixmir
    The Guardian seems a little naieve on the Middle-Eastern issue and fails to see the larger picture.

    The US actively supports Saudi-Arabia and Israel.
    Their blowing up of the Iran nuclear deal, who they support in the Yemen, the actions in Syria: it’s part of large-scale anti-Iran (shi-ite) and pro-Israel policy.

    Hardly likely trump is the driving f ...[text shortened]... me of the most religiously mental people / groups in the world.

    Who’s got whom over a barrel?
    "One should wonder why the US is so rabidly anti-Iranian ..."
    --Shavixmir

    The USA never has forgotten or forgiven Iran for the 1979 seizing of the US Embassy in Tehran.
    From captured documents, the Iranians reconstructed evidence of the USA's support for
    the Shah, including the CIA's collaboration with SAVAK, the Shah's dreaded secret police.
    The US media has preferred to ignore US wrongdoing in Iran and focus upon 'Americans as innocent victims'.

    The USA's obsessive hatred of Iran has led it to form alliances with Saddam Hussein and
    Saudi Arabia (its Wahhabist monarchy hates the Shia), a new imperialist power in the region.
  12. Zugzwang
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    01 Sep '18 19:02
    Originally posted by @shavixmir
    It’s a fact that no matter what the Palestinians do, there’s constantly less Palestine.
    Israel (even led by the extreme right-wing Prime Minister Netanyahu) enjoys the practically
    unconditional support of the USA (led by both Democratic and Republican Presidents)
    and the general support of whatever 'allies' the USA can bully into going along with it.

    In contrast, the Palestinians may have the moral sympathy of most diverse people in the the world.
    But the Palestinians lack the firm support of any powerful state because governments are
    afraid of the USA and unwilling to 'go the wall' against the USA's fanatical support of Israel.
    Iran (non-Arab and Shia) has been the most consistent supporter of the Palestinians (mostly Sunni Arabs)
    largely because the USA's already so hostile toward Iran that Iran has nothing more to lose.

    The international moral boycotts of Israel are having some effect.

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/aug/31/lana-del-rey-pulls-out-of-israeli-festival-after-backlash

    "Lana Del Rey pulls out of Israeli festival after backlash
    Singer had been pressured to cancel show most Palestinians would not be allowed to watch."

    "Del Rey had come under pressure from the Palestine Campaign for the Academic and
    Cultural Boycott of Israel to change her decision: “We doubt that you would have played
    in apartheid South Africa; likewise, artists [should] refuse to play in apartheid Israel.”
  13. Standard membershavixmir
    Guppy poo
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    01 Sep '18 23:58
    One of the more interesting things about artists boycotting Israel, is Springsteen and the E-street band.

    They don’t play there and never give a political reason why.

    However, the E-street gitarist, Little Steve (a genuine rock ‘n’ roll hero) has proclaimed pro-zionist view points.
  14. Joined
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    02 Sep '18 00:16
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    "One should wonder why the US is so rabidly anti-Iranian ..."
    --Shavixmir

    The USA never has forgotten or forgiven Iran for the 1979 seizing of the US Embassy in Tehran.
    From captured documents, the Iranians reconstructed evidence of the USA's support for
    the Shah, including the CIA's collaboration with SAVAK, the Shah's dreaded secret police.
    The ...[text shortened]... nd
    Saudi Arabia (its Wahhabist monarchy hates the Shia), a new imperialist power in the region.
    Saddamn the useful idiot. Just like Quaddfi. Served their purpose then got whacked. Don't you just luv merica?
  15. Standard membershavixmir
    Guppy poo
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    03 Sep '18 16:39
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    "One should wonder why the US is so rabidly anti-Iranian ..."
    --Shavixmir

    The USA never has forgotten or forgiven Iran for the 1979 seizing of the US Embassy in Tehran.
    From captured documents, the Iranians reconstructed evidence of the USA's support for
    the Shah, including the CIA's collaboration with SAVAK, the Shah's dreaded secret police.
    The ...[text shortened]... nd
    Saudi Arabia (its Wahhabist monarchy hates the Shia), a new imperialist power in the region.
    The US had its syphilitic beak stuck in Iran’s business way before 1979.

    Was it ‘55 when they helped overthrow the democratically elected government, causing 2 generations if religious nuttery?

    Utter bastards.
    The sooner Yellowstone blows, the sooner rationality will flourish.
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