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  1. 04 Sep '11 02:13
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14764357

    Karl Marx may have been wrong about communism but he was right about much of capitalism, John Gray writes

    As a side-effect of the financial crisis, more and more people are starting to think Karl Marx was right. The great 19th Century German philosopher, economist and revolutionary believed that capitalism was radically unstable.

    It had a built-in tendency to produce ever larger booms and busts, and over the longer term it was bound to destroy itself.

    Marx welcomed capitalism's self-destruction. He was confident that a popular revolution would occur and bring a communist system into being that would be more productive and far more humane.

    Marx was wrong about communism. Where he was prophetically right was in his grasp of the revolution of capitalism. It's not just capitalism's endemic instability that he understood, though in this regard he was far more perceptive than most economists in his day and ours.


    (follow the link to read the article in its entirety)

    ......

    Interesting point of view, any thoughts?
  2. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    04 Sep '11 02:35 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by generalissimo
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14764357

    [b]Karl Marx may have been wrong about communism but he was right about much of capitalism, John Gray writes


    As a side-effect of the financial crisis, more and more people are starting to think Karl Marx was right. The great 19th Century German philosopher, economist and revolutionary believed th nk to read the article in its entirety)

    ......

    Interesting point of view, any thoughts?[/b]
    Of course Marx was right about capitalism. Today, though, as the shortcomings of capitalism are painfully evident for all to see, keeping Marx around to point them out for us is no longer necessary. And as the influence he exerted on the First International ultimately led socialists into the disasters of Bolshevism and Stalinism, just as Bakunin predicted it would, it's time socialists relegated Marx to the dustbin of history.
  3. Standard member KellyJay
    Walk your Faith
    04 Sep '11 03:01
    Originally posted by generalissimo
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14764357

    [b]Karl Marx may have been wrong about communism but he was right about much of capitalism, John Gray writes


    [i]As a side-effect of the financial crisis, more and more people are starting to think Karl Marx was right. The great 19th Century German philosopher, economist and revolutionary believed th ...[text shortened]... nk to read the article in its entirety)

    ......

    Interesting point of view, any thoughts?[/b]
    No, he wasn't right.
    If we ever get a level playing field it'd work, but between companies, unions,
    individuals, governments, and so on attempting to keep others out of their area
    of control, the playing field is seldom level.
    Kelly
  4. 04 Sep '11 03:43
    “Capitalism is Man Exploiting Man; Communism is just the opposite”

    Pretty much sums it all up.
  5. Standard member KellyJay
    Walk your Faith
    04 Sep '11 06:01
    Originally posted by Ullr
    “Capitalism is Man Exploiting Man; Communism is just the opposite”

    Pretty much sums it all up.
    I think it is the other way around.
    Kelly
  6. 04 Sep '11 09:51
    We havn't had true capitalism in this country since the late 1920s.
    Any criticism is invalid since then.
  7. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    04 Sep '11 11:03
    Originally posted by Metal Brain
    We havn't had true capitalism in this country since the late 1920s.
    Any criticism is invalid since then.
    Do you really think that the capitalism of Herbert Hoover was 'true' capitalism?
  8. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    04 Sep '11 11:05
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    No, he wasn't right.
    If we ever get a level playing field it'd work, but between companies, unions,
    individuals, governments, and so on attempting to keep others out of their area
    of control, the playing field is seldom level.
    Kelly
    What do you think socialism is about? It's about building a level playing field. Capitalism is about maintaining a vastly unequal playing field.
  9. Standard member KellyJay
    Walk your Faith
    04 Sep '11 12:52
    Originally posted by rwingett
    What do you think socialism is about? It's about building a level playing field. Capitalism is about maintaining a vastly unequal playing field.
    I think you have it backwards and this time I'm not kidding!

    True Capitalism lets everyone play on level field and if your products and ideas
    sell you reap the profits from them, if not, you will not. There isn't a force other
    than the free markets that will do that as people buy and sell, with socialisim it
    is a man made forced model, like "Obama care" people are forced to buy.

    People should be able to keep what they make or as much of it as possible, and
    every person should be treated the same way no matter where they are in life.
    In my opinion there should be a flat tax on everyone so that no matter where
    they are they are treated the same way, I don't care how much they make or
    how little there are no favorites.
    Kelly
  10. 04 Sep '11 12:54
    Originally posted by rwingett
    What do you think socialism is about? It's about building a level playing field. Capitalism is about maintaining a vastly unequal playing field.
    There's no way to build a level playing field, it's an impossible dream.
  11. 04 Sep '11 13:21
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Do you really think that the capitalism of Herbert Hoover was 'true' capitalism?
    He was a capitalist, but polices already put in place prevented true capitalism.

    We really didn't have true capitalism since 1913 when the Federal Reserve System was created and the Federal Income Tax was passed. These were both listed in Karl Marx's Communist Manifesto.

    I revise my statement. We havn't had true capitalism since 1913.
  12. 04 Sep '11 13:28 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by generalissimo
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14764357

    [b]Karl Marx may have been wrong about communism but he was right about much of capitalism, John Gray writes


    [i]As a side-effect of the financial crisis, more and more people are starting to think Karl Marx was right. The great 19th Century German philosopher, economist and revolutionary believed th nk to read the article in its entirety)

    ......

    Interesting point of view, any thoughts?[/b]
    Yea, Cuba seems pretty stable to me.

    So which Marxist regimes would you like to lift up as a shining example that is superior to capitalim, or are you just in your ivory tower again General?
  13. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    04 Sep '11 13:29
    Originally posted by Metal Brain
    He was a capitalist, but polices already put in place prevented true capitalism.

    We really didn't have true capitalism since 1913 when the Federal Reserve System was created and the Federal Income Tax was passed. These were both listed in Karl Marx's Communist Manifesto.

    I revise my statement. We havn't had true capitalism since 1913.
    The Communist Manifesto was published in 1848. How could it list events that happened in 1913?
  14. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    04 Sep '11 13:33
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    I think you have it backwards and this time I'm not kidding!

    True Capitalism lets everyone play on level field and if your products and ideas
    sell you reap the profits from them, if not, you will not. There isn't a force other
    than the free markets that will do that as people buy and sell, with socialisim it
    is a man made forced model, like "Obama car ...[text shortened]... the same way, I don't care how much they make or
    how little there are no favorites.
    Kelly
    Capitalism, when left to its own devices, leads inexorably to greater and greater disparities in wealth. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. If that is your idea of a 'level' playing field, then I'm afraid we're simply not speaking the same language.
  15. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    04 Sep '11 13:35
    Originally posted by dryhump
    There's no way to build a level playing field, it's an impossible dream.
    Only to someone who cannot see beyond the self-imposed limitations of his present social environment. There are, and have been, societies with a much more level playing field.