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Debates Forum

  1. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    27 Dec '07 18:34 / 2 edits
    The latest recruit to the Radical America Haters Club on this site has put forward the view that the US only sped the inevitable up.

    I find, as a proud American, that I can see that he might have a plausible point.

    I want to see what people have to say. Hardcore American conservatives, please let's give arguments, not simply insist the world owes us a favor. America haters, likewise. Let's debate, not flame or assert things without support.
  2. Standard member StarValleyWy
    BentnevolentDictater
    27 Dec '07 19:05
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    The latest recruit to the Radical America Haters Club on this site has put forward the view that the US only sped the inevitable up.

    I find, as a proud American, that I can see that he might have a plausible point.

    I want to see what people have to say. Hardcore American conservatives, please let's give arguments, not simply insist the world ow ...[text shortened]... a favor. America haters, likewise. Let's debate, not flame or assert things without support.
    It doesn't matter. We would be arguing about a hypothetical set of worlds that are SO complicated that nobody can tell anything.

    I think that it would be an argument to no purpose. The "reality" of having the US on the sideline would have influenced Hitlers plan in the East. But we can't know to what extent. What if he had not felt the need to go against Brittain OR the USSR for just long enough to develop rocketry, nukes and Jets?

    It is all speculation. I guess it doesn't hurt to speculate, but debating alternate realities seems counter-productive. We only have the reality that did happen.
  3. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    27 Dec '07 19:09 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by StarValleyWy
    It doesn't matter. We would be arguing about a hypothetical set of worlds that are SO complicated that nobody can tell anything.

    I think that it would be an argument to no purpose. The "reality" of having the US on the sideline would have influenced Hitlers plan in the East. But we can't know to what extent. What if he had not felt the need to go ag ing alternate realities seems counter-productive. We only have the reality that did happen.
    These sorts of debates have an impact in the political world. If, say, people in the US who believed one way were persuaded to believe the other, then their politics may change. Oftentimes extreme liberals and extreme conservatives become obsessed with things like this and logic can wake them up.

    In any case, I'm curious what people have to say. Why should I have to justify my curiosity with usefulness?
  4. Standard member StarValleyWy
    BentnevolentDictater
    27 Dec '07 19:15 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    These sorts of debates have an impact in the political world. If, say, people in the US who believed one way were persuaded to believe the other, then their politics may change. Oftentimes extreme liberals and extreme conservatives become obsessed with things like this and logic can wake them up.

    In any case, I'm curious what people have to say. Why should I have to justify my curiosity with usefulness?
    lol

    By all means, break a leg.

    I think that you will find that mind-wipe happens upon a bit more subtle stage than open debate. See "BBC","PBS","CBS","NBC","ABC" and 80% of the internet to get an idea of your competition in this mind-bending task.

    Oh, and "Good Luck. Use the Force!"
  5. Standard member Zadadka
    OnlyOne DimOldie
    27 Dec '07 19:23
    I'm a Brit.

    Like far many more of us than not, I am still grateful that they stepped in and tipped the balance, if not helped win the war.

    Thanks Yanks.
  6. Standard member SMSBear716
    Evil Conservative
    27 Dec '07 19:28
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    The latest recruit to the Radical America Haters Club on this site has put forward the view that the US only sped the inevitable up.

    I find, as a proud American, that I can see that he might have a plausible point.

    I want to see what people have to say. Hardcore American conservatives, please let's give arguments, not simply insist the world ow ...[text shortened]... a favor. America haters, likewise. Let's debate, not flame or assert things without support.
    Simply read Winston Churchill's six volume account of World War II and you will pretty much figure out how vital the United states role was in the war. Without Lend Lease and suppy convoys from the United States, Britian would have been hard pressed to survive.

    By the way, ask your contact in the Radical America's Hater club, who did the most to rebuild Europe and Japan after the war. Hint: it was not the boys in the Kremlin
  7. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    27 Dec '07 19:30
    Originally posted by SMSBear716
    Simply read Winston Churchill's six volume account of World War II and you will pretty much figure out how vital the United states role was in the war. Without Lend Lease and suppy convoys from the United States, Britian would have been hard pressed to survive.

    By the way, ask your contact in the Radical America's Hater club, who did the most to rebuild Europe and Japan after the war. Hint: it was not the boys in the Kremlin
    Ask him yourself.

    http://www.playtheimmortalgame.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=83743
  8. Standard member SMSBear716
    Evil Conservative
    27 Dec '07 19:45
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Ask him yourself.

    http://www.playtheimmortalgame.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=83743
    Well, I would...but its like debating some others here... I get better responses from debating the wall in my study.

    I looked at the thread and I just think he is baiting folks there..... and it seems to be working cause they are arguing with him/her/it
  9. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    27 Dec '07 19:49
    Originally posted by SMSBear716
    Well, I would...but its like debating some others here... I get better responses from debating the wall in my study.

    I looked at the thread and I just think he is baiting folks there..... and it seems to be working cause they are arguing with him/her/it
    It seems to me he has an arguable point. I could probably put together a half-assed defense of his position, but I'd eventually get taken apart by people who know what they are talking about and actually believe in their position.
  10. Standard member SMSBear716
    Evil Conservative
    27 Dec '07 20:01
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    It seems to me he has an arguable point. I could probably put together a half-assed defense of his position, but I'd eventually get taken apart by people who know what they are talking about and actually believe in their position.
    And the Soviets got a bit of Lend Lease aid too. As found on Wikipedia

    The list 1 below is the amount of war matériel shipped to the Soviet Union through the Lend-Lease program from its beginning until 30 September 1945.

    Aircraft 14,795
    Tanks 7,056
    Jeeps 51,503
    Trucks 375,883
    Motorcycles 35,170
    Tractors 8,071
    Guns 8,218
    Machine guns 131,633
    Explosives 345,735 tons
    Building equipment valued $10,910,000
    Railroad freight cars 11,155
    Locomotives 1,981
    Cargo ships 90
    Submarine hunters 105
    Torpedo boats 197
    Ship engines 7,784
    Food supplies 4,478,000 tons
    Machines and equipment $1,078,965,000
    Non-ferrous metals 802,000 tons
    Petroleum products 2,670,000 tons
    Chemicals 842,000 tons
    Cotton 106,893,000 tons
    Leather 49,860 tons
    Tires 3,786,000
    Army boots 15,417,001 pairs

    So, maybe the United States helped them out just a bit too.....
  11. Standard member StarValleyWy
    BentnevolentDictater
    27 Dec '07 20:05
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    It seems to me he has an arguable point. I could probably put together a half-assed defense of his position, but I'd eventually get taken apart by people who know what they are talking about and actually believe in their position.
    You have to ask yourself... "How lucky do you feel punk?"

    What do you have to lose by challenging him? First, lay out what he says. Is it true? If so is it in context of "reality" or just the world the way he sees it? Is he a pseudo-lib? If so, ask him for examples. They NEVER have one. They are easy meat.

    If what he says is true and in context, and you still don't like him then make fun of him. Find his easy target area. What does he care about? A PETA guy or a Terrorist at Heart? You are not fighting HIM at that point. You are on a date with the AUDIENCE.

    Just go for it. It matters not whether you win or lose, but whether you get a bloody nose! It ain't fun at all if nobody gets bloody.

    Metaphorically speaking of course. Ahem

    And if all else fails just remember the old axiom... "What the heck does truth have to do with it!? Can't you see I'm pissed off here???"
  12. 27 Dec '07 20:13
    Originally posted by SMSBear716
    And the Soviets got a bit of Lend Lease aid too. As found on Wikipedia

    The list 1 below is the amount of war matériel shipped to the Soviet Union through the Lend-Lease program from its beginning until 30 September 1945.

    Aircraft 14,795
    Tanks 7,056
    Jeeps 51,503
    Trucks 375,883
    Motorcycles 35,170
    Tractors 8,071
    Guns 8,218
    Machine guns 13 ...[text shortened]...
    Army boots 15,417,001 pairs

    So, maybe the United States helped them out just a bit too.....
    And considering the cold war began immediately following WWII it is unlikely the US was ever repaid for any of the above.

    Perhaps the most crucial item on the whole list was:

    Trucks 375,883

    Without those the Soviet Union may have fallen.
  13. 28 Dec '07 02:28
    Yup, the USA traded with both sides but figured the commies were better than the facists.
  14. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    28 Dec '07 02:52
    All right. Guess the guy's a nutter or a troll after all.
  15. 28 Dec '07 03:16
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    All right. Guess the guy's a nutter or a troll after all.
    The repayment was for the 10-cents-on-the-dollar that was charged for items that were en transit on VJ-Day (or something like that). The UK also paid for around 10-15 pct of the pre-VJ-day materials with rent paid by the US on the its air base.

    James