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Debates Forum

  1. Joined
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    10 Oct '15 21:30
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Wouldn't you say that the insistence of the American people to have high poverty levels, causing a large number of people to have to choose unhealthy options over healthy ones, is then the real problem?
    That is a part of the same roundabout, being that the high levels of subsidies fatten the high end and impoverish the bottom end. My favorite subject.
    .
    The slave masters have not gone, they just wear suits. the ones wielding the whips have not gone, they simply get paid for doing so, but this is for another thread, maybe.
  2. Standard memberfinnegan
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    10 Oct '15 22:11
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Wouldn't you say that the insistence of the American people to have high poverty levels, causing a large number of people to have to choose unhealthy options over healthy ones, is then the real problem?
    Sorry to disagree with you (it had to happen in time) but you are plain wrong on this. You are falling into the same trap of attributing the massive explosion of obesity since the Seventies to the choices people make and failing to accept the significance of the role of the food industry in transforming the nature of the foods we eat in the developed world (and increasingly in the less developed world too).

    The fact is taht even the people seeking out healthy options have been duped by the food industry and governments into making deeply unhealthy choices. The most outrageous form this took was the decision to promote low fat foods as a healthy option. The food industry knew very well that taking fat out of food ruined its taste and aceptability so they replaced fat with corn syrup and other additions which resulted in food that was actually more fattening and not less so. When the World Health Organisation had a draft report exposing this problem, it was prevented from publishing it by American pressure, because the US was the largest source of funds for the WHO. The entire low fat marketing scam is dishonest and always was. What is emerging now, and is referred to in the OP, is that the ingredients put into processed foods are addictive and dangeorus to our health. The way sugar and fat combines to induce addictive behaviours is becoming well understood - trouble is, the people who understand it best and first have been the food industry and they use the information to our disadvantage. The way McDonalds put together their healthy option salad is (unless it has been changed) more fattening and unhealthy than their Big Mac burgers.

    For people to even consider making healthy choices, they need information that is very hard to obtain about the content of their food and they need to be liberated from the marketing tricks of a food industry that is prepared to say black is white rather than act responsibly. When our children were young and I was working every second of every day in one way or another, I simply refused to consider that food produced and marketed for children could possibly be less than appropriate and healthy. I think the first major shock to my complacency was when I discovered how chicken nuggets are manufactured, and if you do not yet know I suggest you start checking out what you are eating.

    Eating home cooked / prepared food from fresh ingredients is about the only way to protect against the food industry. Turing away from meat and going vegan is an ideal strategy. That is not an option until people know how to put together a healthy diet and have the resources to live this way. For may people, it is not at all easy and arguably not even possible.

    But why the hell should we live in a society where we do not have the right to information and where corporations are actually (and often secretly) subsidised to poison our food supply? Why do we have to put up with that tyranny? For freedom?????
  3. Account suspended
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    11 Oct '15 00:402 edits
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Wouldn't you say that the insistence of the American people to have high poverty levels, causing a large number of people to have to choose unhealthy options over healthy ones, is then the real problem?
    "Insistence of the American people to have high poverty levels"????
    Yeah we insist on that.
    US has the fattest poor people in the world and most of them have cell phones and I-pods.
    I see a lot of poor urban "youfs" that got $200 sneakers and have never missed a meal or worked a day in their lives, and have no plans on ever looking for work.
  4. SubscriberWajoma
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    11 Oct '15 06:461 edit
    Originally posted by finnegan
    [i]"Is overeating more addictive than crack cocaine? It’s hard to compare addiction rates, or to produce a clear definition that holds true across all substances and behaviours. But consider this crude contrast: of people who use crack cocaine, 10%-20% become addicted to it; across a nine-year study of 176,000 obese people, 98.3% of the men and 97.8% of the ...[text shortened]... .theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/11/obesity-incurable-disease-cameron-punishing-sufferers
    Nice going Finnegan, you've presented an excellent argument in favor of abandoning state mandated universal healthcare.

    People that take time and care with their diet and exercise, maybe grow a few home veges, end up paying for those that are reckless, careless and just too damn lazy.

    Finnegan, you and monbiot aren't really up with the trends are you, going after food manufacturers is so passe' and so cliche'. The new black for the 'ban' merchants is not food, it's obesity caused by too much sitting.

    Forget the food manufacturers, you should be campaigning, whining and ranting against the chair manufacturers. And check out some of that advertising, some of them actually claim to make healthy chairs, plenty there to get the panties in a knot about.

    What about that stats eh? 100% of people spending 14 hours a day sitting are seated for 58% of their day, damning figures indeed.
  5. Germany
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    11 Oct '15 07:52
    Originally posted by FishHead111
    "Insistence of the American people to have high poverty levels"????
    Yeah we insist on that.
    US has the fattest poor people in the world and most of them have cell phones and I-pods.
    I see a lot of poor urban "youfs" that got $200 sneakers and have never missed a meal or worked a day in their lives, and have no plans on ever looking for work.
    Wow, those poor youths must even be better off than people in South Sudan or the Congo. I guess that means Americans should stop trying to improve their society and catch up with countries with a higher standard of living.
  6. Standard memberfinnegan
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    11 Oct '15 09:39
    Originally posted by Wajoma
    Nice going Finnegan, you've presented an excellent argument in favor of abandoning state mandated universal healthcare.

    People that take time and care with their diet and exercise, maybe grow a few home veges, end up paying for those that are reckless, careless and just too damn lazy.

    Finnegan, you and monbiot aren't really up with the trends are you, ...[text shortened]... people spending 14 hours a day sitting are seated for 58% of their day, damning figures indeed.
    "Healthy chairs" are concerned with protecting our backs, since we did not evolve to sit for long periods. Obviously, we shoudl question such claims. If your command of the language is not sufficient to question what that word "healthy" means in this context, one can readily see why the food industry has such success packaging corn syrup as a healthy food option.

    Given the tendency of manufacturers to lie and confuse, I fail to see why you advocate abandoning state healthcare and replacing it with a free market for corporations to missell without restraint.
  7. Standard memberfinnegan
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    11 Oct '15 09:532 edits
    Originally posted by FishHead111
    "Insistence of the American people to have high poverty levels"????
    Yeah we insist on that.
    US has the fattest poor people in the world and most of them have cell phones and I-pods.
    I see a lot of poor urban "youfs" that got $200 sneakers and have never missed a meal or worked a day in their lives, and have no plans on ever looking for work.
    Your educational level is high enough to (claim to) be a teacher but your capacity for logical thinking is grotesquely weak.

    Americans insist on excessively high and worsening levels of inequality, and the economic system you demand (ask the Tea Party) is one in which large scale poverty is structurally integral. Any attack on poverty is itself attacked. Any attack on stupidity is attacked.

    The food consumed by the poor is often of poor quality. Indeed, they are the targets of a food industry prepared to package horrible ingredients and market them as affordable healthy meals. Poor quality food is part of the whole unfair system that keeps the poor down.

    The myth of people intending to never do a day's work in their lives is one that has been investigated and exploded any times. The poor typically work long and unrewarding hours to get by. The idle rich, including so call "trust children" who are given so much money by their familieis they need never work, ever, would be a more fitting target but that is not your style.

    How the poor spend their money is also a common target of sarcasm. They do indeed want expensive sneakers, ipods, cell phones and other showy items and will buy them for display when they can. Indeed, they want everything the rich want. They can't have everything though, can they! To live decent lives, they also need some of this stuff. Do you not think cell phones are a necessity in contemporary life? Do you resent them the opportunity to enjoy music?

    Is it your notion of poverty that the poor should live ascetic lives, foregoing all pleasure, carefully amassing the little pile of pennies that one day, somehow, might transform their lives in a way to compare with the way the rich can invest their surplus wealth and obtain an unearned income without risk and without foregoing any spending eitehr, since they can have it all at our expense?

    You are a peddler of stupidity and political imbecility and the 1% are very grateful for your support. Confronted with vicious attitudes like yours, day after day, in a poisonous culture of racism and hate, it is hardly to be wondered that the poor fail to display the humility and gratitude you demand of the serfs in your caste based vision of the world.
  8. Joined
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    11 Oct '15 11:46
    Originally posted by jimmac
    1st food is addictive. that is a fact and the control that he is referring to is not to criminalize it just not shove it down everyone's throat.. To me it is a glaringly obvious fact that the cost to the heath system WILL get worse. who is going to pay for it?? You can bet that the tax dodging corporations will not. This post does not talk about banning any ...[text shortened]... costs will drop, along with all the benefits of being healthy. What can be bad about this idea?
    You could also "suggest" that people go to exercise training and food counseling sessions set up by the government. Those that don't wish to do so will obviously be free to do so, but pay a price for not complying. Maybe they pay an extra fee with taxes or, better yet, give those that comply a tax break. That way it won't appear that you are punishing, but rewarding behavior, even though that is exactly what you are doing.

    See, I catch on to this stuff pretty damn quick. 😵
  9. Account suspended
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    11 Oct '15 14:25
    Originally posted by jimmac
    That is a part of the same roundabout, being that the high levels of subsidies fatten the high end and impoverish the bottom end. My favorite subject.
    .
    The slave masters have not gone, they just wear suits. the ones wielding the whips have not gone, they simply get paid for doing so, but this is for another thread, maybe.
    Sit on yer butt drawing free food/housing/medical/ plus spending money and cry about being controlled by slave masters while you watch TV and scratch yourself all day waiting to squeeze out another kid for even mo' money yeah that's slavery alright.
  10. Joined
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    11 Oct '15 20:33
    Originally posted by FishHead111
    Sit on yer butt drawing free food/housing/medical/ plus spending money and cry about being controlled by slave masters while you watch TV and scratch yourself all day waiting to squeeze out another kid for even mo' money yeah that's slavery alright.
    Right on !
    Tell you what I would do , I would get a plane load of fatties and fly them to Africa where famine is rife and make them watch how these people survive .
  11. Joined
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    11 Oct '15 21:20
    Originally posted by whodey
    You could also "suggest" that people go to exercise training and food counseling sessions set up by the government. Those that don't wish to do so will obviously be free to do so, but pay a price for not complying. Maybe they pay an extra fee with taxes or, better yet, give those that comply a tax break. That way it won't appear that you are punishing, but ...[text shortened]... ough that is exactly what you are doing.

    See, I catch on to this stuff pretty damn quick. 😵
    I am a bit slow, so I am unsure of your level of sarcasm, though at some level some of things things happen.As in public awareness campaigns etc. The rest is well?? Finnegans idea, To me at least, hurts no-one, so I ask, Why not? It is uncomplicated and easy to manage, (No bureaucracy) with no-one unable to get what they want. To simple.
    .
    --Surely, more winners than losers. Tell me who it would hurt.?
  12. Joined
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    11 Oct '15 21:23
    Originally posted by FishHead111
    Sit on yer butt drawing free food/housing/medical/ plus spending money and cry about being controlled by slave masters while you watch TV and scratch yourself all day waiting to squeeze out another kid for even mo' money yeah that's slavery alright.
    As I said, A debate for the blind for another day. What do YOU think the slave masters metamorphosised into.
  13. Joined
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    12 Oct '15 16:18
    Originally posted by finnegan
    Twitter: @georgemonbiot.
    Oh, that says it all, no need to read the rest. Monbiot is to the Grauniad is what whodey and Eladar are to these forums.
  14. Standard memberfinnegan
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    13 Oct '15 10:21
    Originally posted by Shallow Blue
    Oh, that says it all, no need to read the rest. Monbiot is to the Grauniad is what whodey and Eladar are to these forums.
    Monbiot writes serious journalism with solid sources all referenced. Like myself he is on the political left. As such, he is probably very unamerican and blasphemes against the god of property, while failing to rank the white Ameican male at the pinnacle of social evolution. In many respects, he may even be a MARXIST - OMG - A MARXIST and even an ATHEIST OMG AN ATHEIST MARXIST and very frightening to read if you are a (GOD SAVE AMERICA) typically neoliberal piece of American flotsam in the grip of your depressing media.
  15. The Catbird's Seat
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    13 Oct '15 12:29
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    You conducted a survey among first-time crack users?
    From your cited article, they claim first time crack users are addicted at between 10% and 20%. That was your source, and I'm using it.

    Your article when making the comparison of crack to food, uses a different starting point, not the first time someone overeats, but obesity when overeating may have been habitual for years or decades. Don't be obtuse. The article is balderdash.

    I eat lots of foods sold at the market and am not obese. Not everyone becomes obese, but most people who use crack end up addicts.
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