Please turn on javascript in your browser to play chess.
Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    27 Dec '09 19:06
    Yes, this is another thread on Israel-Palestine. But this is not one in which I'm going to start by saying "Arabs are terrorists" or "Israelis are imperialist Nazis." Obviously, one never knows how a thread will turn out, but I'd like to make this as constructive a thread as possible.

    Okay, first my hypothesis:

    The majority of both Israelis and Palestinians (including people who support both sides) are probably willing to compromise to the extent necessary to get a real deal done. Does anyone really think that the majority of Israelis want to keep living under the threat of terrorist attacks, rocket launching and knowing that they exist only so long as the Arabs don't get stronger than they are? Does anyone really think the majority of Palestinians really want to go on living without much more the basic necessities of life, no free movement, not much hope for the future and always under the threat of Israeli incursions? Come of, folks, get real. These are people we're talking about.

    However, both sides are bound to placate their fringes who are either unwilling to compromise with the other side or unwilling to make reasonable concessions.

    So, let's take this issue by issue. I will try to be as honest as I can about what I believe the majority of Israelis would be willing to concede for peace. Maybe someone reasonable on the other side would be willing to give me an honest assessment of what the majority of Palestinians/ other relevant Arabs would be willing to settle for.

    But, before we do that even, we need to lay out the issues. As far as I can tell, outstanding issues that need to be settled in a comprehensive agreement for a two state solution (there is no other reasonable solution, Scherzo's protestations to the contrary notwithstanding) need to include:

    1) The borders of the Palestinian state
    2) Travel for Palestinians between the West Bank and Gaza
    3) Status of Temple Mount and the old city in Jerusalem
    4) Status of East Jerusalem
    5) Status of Israeli settlements in the West Bank that are Jerusalem suburbs
    6) Status of other Israeli Settlements in the West Bank
    7) Rights to the divert the water in the Jordan river and Sea of Galilee for irrigation of farmland
    8) Palestinian recognition of Israeli sovereignty to the land under Israeli rule under the final settlement
    9) Palestinian steps against would be terrorists against Israel within their borders
    10) Palestinian rhetoric and education regarding Israel
    11) Free and open borders
    12) Right of Israeli incursions for the sole purpose of fighting terrorist groups, if any
    13) Rights of Palestinian "refugees" whose ancestors were driven from land within the borders of the Israeli state under the agreement

    Are these any other issues I'm missing? If no one can think of any, I'll give you my guess as to the position of the majority of Israelis on each of these.
  2. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    27 Dec '09 20:38
    Originally posted by sh76
    Yes, this is another thread on Israel-Palestine. But this is not one in which I'm going to start by saying "Arabs are terrorists" or "Israelis are imperialist Nazis." Obviously, one never knows how a thread will turn out, but I'd like to make this as constructive a thread as possible.

    Okay, first my hypothesis:

    The majority of both Israelis and Palestini ...[text shortened]... give you my guess as to the position of the majority of Israelis on each of these.
    How do you think Israelis think rocket terrorism by Islamists agains Israeli Jews should be dealt with?
  3. 27 Dec '09 22:47
    Originally posted by sh76
    Yes, this is another thread on Israel-Palestine. But this is not one in which I'm going to start by saying "Arabs are terrorists" or "Israelis are imperialist Nazis." Obviously, one never knows how a thread will turn out, but I'd like to make this as constructive a thread as possible.

    Okay, first my hypothesis:

    The majority of both Israelis and Palestini ...[text shortened]... give you my guess as to the position of the majority of Israelis on each of these.
    This is a very constructive start of a thread! This I like!
  4. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    28 Dec '09 02:10
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    This is a very constructive start of a thread! This I like!
    You see how far constructive threads go? Nobody wants to put up with that nonsense.
  5. 28 Dec '09 02:16 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by sh76
    Yes, this is another thread on Israel-Palestine. But this is not one in which I'm going to start by saying "Arabs are terrorists" or "Israelis are imperialist Nazis." Obviously, one never knows how a thread will turn out, but I'd like to make this as constructive a thread as possible.

    Okay, first my hypothesis:

    The majority of both Israelis and Palestini give you my guess as to the position of the majority of Israelis on each of these.
    I'm sure that there are Palestinians who desire peace and to live peaceably with the Zionists. However, with the likes of Iran backing Hezbollah and forces in Palastine and abroad in the Arab world indoctrinating people to think of Zionists as a cancer that needs to wiped off the face of the earth, the mere fact that some Palastinians may want peace is a nonsequitur. These people are trapped in a war that is far beyond the issues of the average Joe in Palastine.

    As Sherzo once said, there is no room for a Zionist state in the Holy Land.
  6. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    28 Dec '09 02:26
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    How do you think Israelis think rocket terrorism by Islamists agains Israeli Jews should be dealt with?
    That's part of issues 9 and 12. Of course, that is a key sticking point in any negotiation. But I don't think it's irresolvable.
  7. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    28 Dec '09 02:28
    Originally posted by whodey
    I'm sure that there are Palestinians who desire peace and to live peaceably with the Zionists. However, with the likes of Iran backing Hezbollah and forces in Palastine and abroad in the Arab world indoctrinating people to think of Zionists as a cancer that needs to wiped off the face of the earth, the mere fact that some Palastinians may want peace is a non ...[text shortened]... oe in Palastine.

    As Sherzo once said, there is no room for a Zionist state in the Holy Land.
    Call me naive, but I think that people are fundamentally reasonable. People who are indoctrinated don't lose their common sense. Make them believe that their indoctrination was BS, and many of them will reject it.
  8. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    28 Dec '09 02:37
    Originally posted by sh76
    Call me naive, but I think that people are fundamentally reasonable. People who are indoctrinated don't lose their common sense. Make them believe that their indoctrination was BS, and many of them will reject it.
    I grew up in Britain and, like most people, I was utterly convinced that there was simply no solution to the problem of Northern Ireland. It seemed like the ultimate intractable conflict. And yet I was wrong. Now, like most people of around my age, I had long been utterly convinced that there was simply no solution to the intractable problem of Israel/Palestine, and yet since the situation in Northern Ireland was turned around, I have been more optimistic. At least I will never think 'never' again.
  9. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    28 Dec '09 02:44
    Originally posted by whodey
    people [...] think of Zionists as a cancer that needs to wiped off the face of the earth
    if you want to see a solution - or even merely contribute to a grown up debate about what athe solution might be - you need to stop getting sidetracked by the hateful rhetoric swirling around. And that's all it is. You and your misery guts paranoia (no offence intended, indeed, I think you're proud of what you are and how you post) are the direct intellectual counterparts to those who lap up the bombastic rubbish about "wiping israel off the face of the map" [sic]. The region is, in fact, one where realpolitik reigns.
  10. 28 Dec '09 02:45 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by sh76
    Call me naive, but I think that people are fundamentally reasonable. People who are indoctrinated don't lose their common sense. Make them believe that their indoctrination was BS, and many of them will reject it.
    But this is the strongest of indoctrinations. This stems from religious belief. It is the belief that the Holy Land should remain Islamic, there is no compromise. Case in point is the very day they were made a nation and then attacked from all sides. There has not been peace since. In fact, the war against the Zionists started with Al Amin Husseini, long before they were even given the Holy Land.

    As for your assertion that people who are indoctrinated don't lose their common sense, what have you been witnessing in the Holy Land since the 1940's? It seems we have been witnessing two different conflicts. When people can continuously send their children out in the streets of Israel to blow themselves up and then be decalared matryres throughout the Islamic world, I would say common sense has taken a back seat.
  11. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    28 Dec '09 02:57
    Originally posted by whodey
    But this is the strongest of indoctrinations. This stems from religious belief. It is the belief that the Holy Land should remain Islamic, there is no compromise. Case in point is the very day they were made a nation and then attacked from all sides.
    Yes, well there are those who say that setting up Israel was a geopolitical mistake. A 'refuge' for European Jews could perhaps have been established in North America, carved out of U.S. land. Or in some part of Europe. whatever. However the Zionist preference and priority was rooted in religious/ethnic/historical belief - the belief that the Holy Land should remain Jewish and that there can be no compromise. On both sides, and more especially on the 'Islamic side', the effect of what you call the "strongest of indoctrinations" and the firm religious beliefs that - alongside nationalism - propel the anti-Israel passions, will dissipate and peace will one day be achieved.
  12. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    28 Dec '09 02:59
    Originally posted by sh76
    Yes, this is another thread on Israel-Palestine. But this is not one in which I'm going to start by saying "Arabs are terrorists" or "Israelis are imperialist Nazis." Obviously, one never knows how a thread will turn out, but I'd like to make this as constructive a thread as possible.
    Seems your opening remarks (in the OP) were not sufficient to head whodey off at the pass.
  13. 28 Dec '09 03:01 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by FMF
    [b]Yes, well there are those who say that setting up Israel was a geopolitical mistake. A 'refuge' for European Jews could perhaps have been established in North America, carved out of U.S. land. Or in some part of Europe.
    In Europe, eh? Yea, that worked out well for them, didn't it? I think the Nazis talked about sending them to Madagascar before they decided on the "final solution". Maybe there is still some room there?
  14. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    28 Dec '09 03:03
    Originally posted by sh76
    7) Rights to the divert the water in the Jordan river and Sea of Galilee for irrigation of farmland
    This one leaps out at me as a dangerously overlooked and underestimated issue and I am pleased to see you were mindful to include it on your thoughful list of bugbears and sticking points.

    There is no viable Palestinian state possible if the issue of Israel's hogging of the available water is not addressed up front and in advance (as opposed to after the two-states deed is done).
  15. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    28 Dec '09 03:04
    Originally posted by whodey
    In Europe, eh? Yea, that worked out well for them, didn't it? I think the Nazis talked about sending them to Madagascar before they decided on the "final solution". Maybe there is still some room there?
    Thank you for your thoughts.