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Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. 07 Aug '10 21:28 / 2 edits
    After discussing the continuing, (kick the can down the road) issue of illegal immigration in the US, I started thinking about what citizenship really means. Should citizenship be decided by the citizens of a society or the representatives who they elect? If the representatives are the ones who decide and they then decide to grant citizenship to people who are not legal citizens, or turn a blind eye to them being illegal against the will of the citizens of a given country, who then are these people representing? Are they not representing another group other than the citizens they swore to represent?

    So what is your opinion? What criterea should be used to grant or take away citizenship? Should the citizens be involved democratically via a vote on the issue or should they allow their representatives to dictate to them what should be done even if it is against their will?
  2. Standard member yo its me
    watch the acid...
    07 Aug '10 21:51 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by whodey
    After discussing the continuing, (kick the can down the road) issue of illegal immigration in the US, I started thinking about what citizenship really means. Should citizenship be decided by the citizens of a society or the representatives who they elect? If the representatives are the ones who decide and they then decide to grant citizenship to people who ...[text shortened]... w their representatives to dictate to them what should be done even if it is against their will?
    Should the govenment be given free rain on decisions of who enters?
    Yes, that's why we elect them, so they will make the decisions for us and if we disagree there's sure to be some who do agree becasue they have been elected, hopefully by people who read their manifesto and knew who they were voting for.

    What dose citizenship mean?
    Being part of society, surelly. Which anyone can do, and if they stop doing that- break the law behave in a socially negative way, then they should be repremanded same as everyone else, have an ASBO or be sent to prison, just like the rest of society is.

    It's my opnion that anyone should be given citizenship if they want it.
  3. Donation bbarr
    Chief Justice
    07 Aug '10 22:00
    Originally posted by whodey
    After discussing the continuing, (kick the can down the road) issue of illegal immigration in the US, I started thinking about what citizenship really means. Should citizenship be decided by the citizens of a society or the representatives who they elect? If the representatives are the ones who decide and they then decide to grant citizenship to people who ...[text shortened]... w their representatives to dictate to them what should be done even if it is against their will?
    Proficiency in English should be criterial for citizenship, and the successful completion of a civics course.
  4. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    07 Aug '10 22:12
    Originally posted by whodey
    After discussing the continuing, (kick the can down the road) issue of illegal immigration in the US, I started thinking about what citizenship really means. Should citizenship be decided by the citizens of a society or the representatives who they elect? If the representatives are the ones who decide and they then decide to grant citizenship to people who ...[text shortened]... w their representatives to dictate to them what should be done even if it is against their will?
    In Northern Ireland Ian Paisley became infamous as one of the most opinionated and bigoted leaders of the Protestant community at the expense of the Catholics, especially in the late Sixties when they were seeking civil rights like one man one vote.

    As an elected Member of Parliament, however, it is universally accepted that he was a diligent and honest representative for everyone in his constituency, including Catholics, who would riot against his side on the streets but then confidently attend his surgery for assistance and advice in dealing with public services.

    America still has a representative democracy and it serves everyone including immigrants. However you seem to be advocating something more like mob rule by the majority. You will end up accepting people in power based on crazy and ill considered populist notions and I suspect that Sarah Palin is indicative of the type of politician you seem to want because only idiots will offer to appease the mob in complex social issues.
  5. Subscriber Wajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
    07 Aug '10 22:18
    Originally posted by bbarr
    Proficiency in English should be criterial for citizenship, and the successful completion of a civics course.
    Thankfully in the early days that was not a criteria for the US or NZ.

    Here would be my criteria:

    You are welcome here as long as your purpose is not to initiate force, threats of force and fraud. This includes not indulging in free (make someone else pay) services. Stand on your own two feet, deal with your fellow man by consent, pay for the services you use. Good luck.
  6. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    07 Aug '10 22:21
    Originally posted by bbarr
    Proficiency in English should be criterial for citizenship, and the successful completion of a civics course.
    I resent the demand that people speak English.
  7. Standard member yo its me
    watch the acid...
    07 Aug '10 22:24
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    I resent the demand that people speak English.
    Why?
  8. Donation bbarr
    Chief Justice
    07 Aug '10 22:26
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    I resent the demand that people speak English.
    I am not demanding that people speak English. I am suggesting that proficiency in English be a condition of citizenship. Non-citizen immigrants would not need English proficiency, and citizens are free to speak whatever language they prefer as long as they are also proficient in English.
  9. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    07 Aug '10 22:28
    Originally posted by bbarr
    I am not demanding that people speak English. I am suggesting that proficiency in English be a condition of citizenship. Non-citizen immigrants would not need English proficiency, and citizens are free to speak whatever language they prefer as long as they are also proficient in English.
    I resent the association of fluency in a European language with one's political status. I don't think it's reasonable.
  10. 07 Aug '10 22:33
    Originally posted by Wajoma
    Thankfully in the early days that was not a criteria for the US or NZ.

    Here would be my criteria:

    You are welcome here as long as your purpose is not to initiate force, threats of force and fraud. This includes not indulging in free (make someone else pay) services. Stand on your own two feet, deal with your fellow man by consent, pay for the services you use. Good luck.
    So immigrants should be forbidden to send their kids to public schools?
  11. Donation bbarr
    Chief Justice
    07 Aug '10 22:34
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    I resent the association of fluency in a European language with one's political status. I don't think it's reasonable.
    What are your reasons?
  12. 07 Aug '10 23:23
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    I resent the demand that people speak English.
    I resent the fact that I have to listen to spanish directions everytime I call some place of business. I eats up my time. I also resent having to answer questions from a dam machine... I want person to person communication....
    We don't have anyone saying push 1 for Sioux, or 2 for Apache...... WTF
    send em all home...
  13. Donation bbarr
    Chief Justice
    07 Aug '10 23:35
    Originally posted by Hugh Glass
    I resent the fact that I have to listen to spanish directions everytime I call some place of business. I eats up my time. I also resent having to answer questions from a dam machine... I want person to person communication....
    We don't have anyone saying push 1 for Sioux, or 2 for Apache...... WTF
    send em all home...
    You want to send the Sioux and Apache home? And where would that be, exactly?
  14. 07 Aug '10 23:42
    Originally posted by bbarr
    You want to send the Sioux and Apache home? And where would that be, exactly?
    The Sioux would be in the Black Hills, where we carved the faces of 3 Presidents in to the rock of their Holy land..... The Apache are stuck in a reservation in AZ...
    I would call Mexico home for the illegals
    Hey here ya go,, we did it to the indians,, make all the illegals take English names,,,
  15. 08 Aug '10 00:09
    Originally posted by bbarr
    Proficiency in English should be criterial for citizenship, and the successful completion of a civics course.
    Why? After all, don't they teach EBONICS in public schools?