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Debates Forum

  1. Joined
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    28 Jun '15 20:53
    If the discussion about Muslims instead of red necks, the left would be on the exact opposite side of this discussion.

    Obama would be telling people that they simply don't understand the red necks. But since we are talking about white Americans and not Muslims things are totally different.
  2. Zugzwang
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    28 Jun '15 20:581 edit
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    How could it be displayed over government buildings immediately after the war? The Federal government was controlled by the winners from the northern states. It would be foolish for the southerners to attempt to display it on government buildings soon after the war. I am a redneck southerner, but I am not that ignorant.
    RJHinds seems determined to miss the point that *long after* Southern white men had regained
    control over Southern state governments, the CSA battle flag did *not* fly over government buildings.
    The CSA battle flag began flying there *only after* Southern white politicians had begun
    to feel threatened by the civil rights movement.
  3. Standard memberRJHinds
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    28 Jun '15 21:221 edit
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    RJHinds seems determined to miss the point that *long after* Southern white men had regained
    control over Southern state governments, the CSA battle flag did *not* fly over government buildings.
    The CSA battle flag began flying there *only after* Southern white politicians had begun
    to feel threatened by the civil rights movement.
    Here we wanted to answer two questions. One is simple, when did the Confederate battle flag first fly above the South Carolina statehouse? And second, why?

    Daniel Hollis, a member of the commission responsible for planning South Carolina’s Confederate War Centennial, recalled the exact day the flag was first hoisted during an interview published in 1999.

    Hollis said the flag itself went up on April 11, 1961, for the opening of the Civil War centennial "at the request of Aiken Rep. John A. May."

    "May told us he was going to introduce a resolution to fly the flag for a year from the capitol. I was against the flag going up," Hollis said, "but I kept quiet and went along."

    The resolution was approved in 1962, but never included a date for the flag’s removal.

    "It just stayed up," Hollis said. "Nobody raised a question."

    Hollis died in 2008.

    The flag’s changing meaning

    So, yes, the flag didn’t start flying until 100 years after the start of the Civil War. But why the flag was flown is -- like the flag itself -- subject to some debate.

    Robinson cited a study conducted by the state Senate of Georgia to help make his case.

    Although the study focuses on the history and evolution of Georgia’s state flag, it also explores the different Confederate flags that have existed and how those flags have been used by states.


    The study pays special attention to what the different flags mean. "It must be understood how the meaning of the battle flag has changed since the Civil War and explore what it meant at the time Georgia and other states adopted it or paid homage to it," the report reads.

    The study says that "from the end of the Civil War until the late 1940s, display of the battle flag was mostly limited to Confederate commemorations, Civil War re-enactments, and veterans’ parades. The flag had simply become a tribute to Confederate veterans."

    http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/jun/22/eugene-robinson/confederate-flag-wasnt-flown-south-carolina-state-/
  4. Account suspended
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    28 Jun '15 21:322 edits
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    "did you watch the small video excerpt"
    no

    "Can you explain why there is not a confederate flag in sight as the KKK march on Washington"
    no. don't care
    As i suspected you have not the slightest interest in American history nor in learning about it. People who are willfully ignorant don't care, its whats makes them well. . . . willfully ignorant. Thank you for demonstrating the fact.
  5. Zugzwang
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    28 Jun '15 21:362 edits
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    [quote] [b]Here we wanted to answer two questions. One is simple, when did the Confederate battle flag first fly above the South Carolina statehouse? And second, why?

    Daniel Hollis, a member of the commission responsible for planning South Carolina’s Confederate War Centennial, recalled the exact day the flag was first hoisted during an interview publ ...[text shortened]... tfact/statements/2015/jun/22/eugene-robinson/confederate-flag-wasnt-flown-south-carolina-state-/[/b]
    This corroborates my factual statement that the CSA battle flag did *not begin*
    flying over Southern government buildings *until after* the Second World War.

    I would hardly expect some white Southern politicians to admit that the CSA battle flag began
    flying over Southern government buildings as a symbol of defiance against the civil rights movement.
    Indeed, some white Americans can hardly admit there's any racism at all in the USA.
  6. Account suspended
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    28 Jun '15 21:391 edit
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    [quote] [b]Here we wanted to answer two questions. One is simple, when did the Confederate battle flag first fly above the South Carolina statehouse? And second, why?

    Daniel Hollis, a member of the commission responsible for planning South Carolina’s Confederate War Centennial, recalled the exact day the flag was first hoisted during an interview publ ...[text shortened]... tfact/statements/2015/jun/22/eugene-robinson/confederate-flag-wasnt-flown-south-carolina-state-/[/b]
    Its quite interesting, essentially what we are dealing with is a perception rather than a reality. No one I know who ever watched the Dukes of Hazzard as a kid and associated the confederate flag on top of the Dukes motor General Lee as a racist symbol. The link that I gave of the march of the KKK in the 1920's marching on Washington seems to also indicate that it was not historically a symbol of white supremacy and has only laterally been perceived as one and yet not by all people.
  7. Standard memberRJHinds
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    28 Jun '15 21:411 edit
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    This corroborates my factual statement that the CSA battle flag did *not begin*
    flying over Southern government buildings *until after* the Second World War.

    I would hardly expect some white Southern politicians to admit that the CSA battle flag began
    flying over Southern government buildings as a symbol of defiance against the civil rights movement.
    Indeed, some white Americans can hardly admit there's any racism at all in the USA.
    No one is saying that it was not used by some to protest against the federal government. The point was to determine the original intent of flying the flag. The orignal intent was as a memorial to pay a tribute to the confederate veterans of the civil war. South Carolina did not fly it at the state capitol as a symbol of racism even though it might have been used by some for such a purpose.

    It has been taken down now, so that should end the debate, but i doubt that it will, because someone always needs something to dum up conflicts to run down America as racist.
  8. Joined
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    28 Jun '15 21:42
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    [quote] [b]Here we wanted to answer two questions. One is simple, when did the Confederate battle flag first fly above the South Carolina statehouse? And second, why?

    Daniel Hollis, a member of the commission responsible for planning South Carolina’s Confederate War Centennial, recalled the exact day the flag was first hoisted during an interview publ ...[text shortened]... tfact/statements/2015/jun/22/eugene-robinson/confederate-flag-wasnt-flown-south-carolina-state-/[/b]
    There is a more complete report here:

    http://www.scpronet.com/point/9909/p04.html

    excerpt:

    "The day the Confederate flag went up over the State House, the opening ceremonies of the centennial in Charleston were marred by controversy. Newspapers reported the open and ugly feuding between South Carolina and the national Centennial Commission, calling it "the second battle of Fort Sumter."

    The centennial delegations from New Jersey and Missouri included blacks who were refused entrance to the segregated Francis Marion Hotel, where the events were to be held. The South Carolina hosts refused to allow the black delegates to participate. In response, the Charleston NAACP organized protests.

    The situation was only partially resolved when President John F. Kennedy issued an executive order moving the centennial meetings to the Charleston Navy Base, one of the few integrated facilities in town. South Carolina led the South in leaving the national commission, and holding its own segregated events in the hotel.

    The dais in the ballroom of the Francis Marion was festooned with Confederate flags when Sen. John D. Long, who had sponsored resolutions that placed the flag over the House and Senate rostrums, warmed up the crowd: "Out of the dust and ashes of War with its attendant destruction and woe, came Reconstruction more insidious than war and equally evil in consequences, until the prostrate South staggered to her knees assisted by the original Ku Klux Klan and the Red Shirts who redeemed the South and restored her to her own."

    Sen. Strom Thurmond, elected in 1956 on a staunch segregationist platform, and fresh from a run for president as a state's rights Dixiecrat, also spoke at the opening ceremony. He told the whites-only crowd that nowhere in the U.S. Constitution "does it hint a purpose to insure equality of man or things."

    He said that the Founding Fathers created a republic rather that a democracy, "where everyone rules and majority rule is absolute." Thurmond warned the crowd that integration was a Communist plot designed to weaken America. "It has been revealed time and time again that advocacy by Communists of social equality among diverse races… is the surest method for the destruction of free governments.

    "I am proud of the job that South Carolina is doing [in regard to segregation]," Thurmond said, "and I urge that we continue in this great tradition no matter how much outside agitation may be brought to bear on our people and our state." "
  9. Zugzwang
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    28 Jun '15 21:501 edit
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    No one is saying that it was not used by some to protest against the federal government.
    The point was to determine the original intent of flying the flag.
    The orignal intent was as a memorial to pay a tribute to the confederate veterans of the civil war.
    I have no objection to the CSA battle flag flying around CSA war memorials.
    A state government building is *not* a CSA war memorial.

    My point is that for almost one century after the Civil War, Southern white people got
    on fine with their lives *without* the CSA battle flag flying over state government buildings.
    It's disingenuous to claim any kind of 'moral historical necessity' for the CSA battle flag
    to be kept flying over state government buildings.
  10. Standard memberRJHinds
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    28 Jun '15 21:55
    Originally posted by JS357
    There is a more complete report here:

    http://www.scpronet.com/point/9909/p04.html

    excerpt:

    "The day the Confederate flag went up over the State House, the opening ceremonies of the centennial in Charleston were marred by controversy. Newspapers reported the open and ugly feuding between South Carolina and the national Centennial Commission, calling it ...[text shortened]... tion no matter how much outside agitation may be brought to bear on our people and our state." "
    As I said before the intent is what is really important, not the conflict. And the intent was clearly as a memorial to the southern veterans of the civil war at the 100 year anniversary.
  11. Joined
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    28 Jun '15 22:071 edit
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    As I said before the intent is what is really important, not the conflict. And the intent was clearly as a memorial to the southern veterans of the civil war at the 100 year anniversary.
    I think there were many intended purposes, different intentions for different people, and trying to convince people that there is one intention and not another is pointless. The battle flag symbolizes different values for different people, including white supremacists like the shooter. I don't think we should overreact to such things, but should at least acknowledge this fact.
  12. wherever I am needed
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    29 Jun '15 11:042 edits
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    The confederate flag is a symbol of treason and racism.
    Or the symbol of a group of states who felt Federal taxes and impositions were unfairly treating them and wished to become independant.

    Your use of the word 'treason' may be strictly true. It is an interesting view , considering the many 'treasonous' nations that have split away from the 'mother country' in the past few decades.

    Were Ukraine, Belarus etc 'treasonous' to leave the old USSR? Do you disapprove of them so doing? Is the Ukranian flag a 'flag of treason'?

    Of course. American Civil War. Those nasty Southerners kept slaves and treated them badly. And the nice North went to war and freed the slaves. And that's all there was to it.
  13. Joined
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    29 Jun '15 11:24
    Originally posted by st dominics preview
    Or the symbol of a group of states who felt Federal taxes and impositions were unfairly treating them and wished to become independant.

    Your use of the word 'treason' may be strictly true. It is an interesting view , considering the many 'treasonous' nations that have split away from the 'mother country' in the past few decades.

    Were Ukrain ...[text shortened]... them badly. And the nice North went to war and freed the slaves. And that's all there was to it.
    and racism and treason
  14. Joined
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    29 Jun '15 11:251 edit
    Originally posted by st dominics preview
    Or the symbol of a group of states who felt Federal taxes and impositions were unfairly treating them and wished to become independant.

    Your use of the word 'treason' may be strictly true. It is an interesting view , considering the many 'treasonous' nations that have split away from the 'mother country' in the past few decades.

    Were Ukrain ...[text shortened]... them badly. And the nice North went to war and freed the slaves. And that's all there was to it.
    "Were Ukraine, Belarus etc 'treasonous' to leave the old USSR? "
    from the ussr's point of view? yes.

    treason is subjective. and strictly speaking, the confederates were treasonous.


    slavery is not subjective. the southern states were pro slavery. their economy depended on it.
  15. wherever I am needed
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    29 Jun '15 11:271 edit
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    "Were Ukraine, Belarus etc 'treasonous' to leave the old USSR? "
    from the ussr's point of view? yes
    from yours? and you avoided my question asking if you approved of Ukraine and other countries leaving the old USSR

    Are you willing to offer your reply to that question?
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