Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Standard memberbill718
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    28 Apr '16 11:282 edits
    Americans are an angry group. They complain about corrupt politicians, the direction of the country, the economy, and countless other things. I have news for you folks: It's not all that bad! Back in the early 70's when I entered the workplace, America had just gone through Richard Nixon and his Watergate sideshow, unemployment was over 7% in my state, interest rates for home loans was over 13%, inflation was much worse than it is now, and No Help Wanted signs were everywhere. Today it's much easier to find a job (and yes republicans....most Americans really do work) the wars in the middle east have died down, women and minorities are treated better in the workplace than in decades past, and even the ranks of long term unemployed are shrinking. Yes, we have problems in America, but show me any large country that doesn't! Rather than blaming Conservatives, Liberals, Wall Street, The Government etc. for all of our ills, let us use this period of relative peace, and moderate economic prosperity to focus on living within our means, building up our savings, being a little more friendly to others, eating smart, exercising and being thankful for what we have.

    I don't want to sound like some public service announcement, but much of this anger people feel today is fed to us by the talking heads on both Liberal and Conservative media outlets, each telling us that the other side is to blame for all of our problems, they do this because it boosts their ratings...and they are both wrong.
  2. Standard membervivify
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    28 Apr '16 11:552 edits
    The wars in the middle east have "died down"? The War in Iraq? The Gaza Strip? ISIS? The Arab Spring? Libya?

    There's constant turmoil in the mid-east, much of which the U.S. is responsible for.
  3. Joined
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    28 Apr '16 12:07
    Originally posted by bill718
    Americans are an angry group. They complain about corrupt politicians, the direction of the country, the economy, and countless other things. I have news for you folks: It's not all that bad! Back in the early 70's when I entered the workplace, America had just gone through Richard Nixon and his Watergate sideshow, unemployment was over 7% in my state, inter ...[text shortened]... for all of our problems, they do this because it boosts their ratings...and they are both wrong.
    It seems to me that when you see the level of anger and the level of support on both ends of the spectrum (Sanders and Trump) for people who would be normally considered extreme that people are not satisfied with the status quo and that they believe they are entitled to something different.
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    28 Apr '16 13:041 edit
    Originally posted by bill718
    Americans are an angry group. They complain about corrupt politicians, the direction of the country, the economy, and countless other things. I have news for you folks: It's not all that bad! Back in the early 70's when I entered the workplace, America had just gone through Richard Nixon and his Watergate sideshow, unemployment was over 7% in my state, inter ...[text shortened]... for all of our problems, they do this because it boosts their ratings...and they are both wrong.
    And here I thought the rich kept getting richer and the middle class continued to shrink.

    But I guess that was just under Bush and the GOP, my bad.

    8 more years of Obama and the fabulous status quo, vote Hillary! 😵
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    28 Apr '16 13:08
    Originally posted by quackquack
    It seems to me that when you see the level of anger and the level of support on both ends of the spectrum (Sanders and Trump) for people who would be normally considered extreme that people are not satisfied with the status quo and that they believe they are entitled to something different.
    The left continually divides society along socioeconomic lines and race and sex and then throw gas on the fire by referring to their opposition as the Taliban and they have the gall to ask why Americans seem so upset?

    Beats the hell out of me.
  6. Standard memberbill718
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    28 Apr '16 14:11
    Originally posted by whodey
    The left continually divides society along socioeconomic lines and race and sex and then throw gas on the fire by referring to their opposition as the Taliban and they have the gall to ask why Americans seem so upset?

    Beats the hell out of me.
    ...and once again Whodey is quick to point out the many flaws in the agendas of others, while offering no solutions of his own😲
  7. Germany
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    28 Apr '16 15:08
    Why all the anger? People have an innate sense of justice and fairness, and when a small segment of society reaps all the benefits of the labour of a much larger segment of society, or when someone works hard but receives inadequate compensation or recognition while others who barely do any useful work receive many resources, this is deemed unfair by many of such a society's inhabitants. Unfortunately people tend not to very good at pinpointing the source of such problems, which allows opportunists and populists like Trump and Sanders to point their fingers at immigrants, free trade, etc.
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    28 Apr '16 15:38
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Why all the anger? People have an innate sense of justice and fairness, and when a small segment of society reaps all the benefits of the labour of a much larger segment of society, or when someone works hard but receives inadequate compensation or recognition while others who barely do any useful work receive many resources, this is deemed unfair by ma ...[text shortened]... ists and populists like Trump and Sanders to point their fingers at immigrants, free trade, etc.
    Much of what you state as fact is merely your opinion. When people believe their opinions are actually facts they are more likely to demand a more extreme solution. When different people demand contradicting things it will impossible to please everyone and there will be anger.
  9. Germany
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    28 Apr '16 15:59
    Originally posted by quackquack
    Much of what you state as fact is merely your opinion. When people believe their opinions are actually facts they are more likely to demand a more extreme solution. When different people demand contradicting things it will impossible to please everyone and there will be anger.
    What, specifically, did I "state as fact" but is "merely [my] opinion"?
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    28 Apr '16 16:28
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    What, specifically, did I "state as fact" but is "merely [my] opinion"?
    You said "a small segment of society reaps all the benefits of the labour." It is hard to believe that you believe ALL the benefits go to one segment, but when you exaggerate in hopes of trying to convince groups that they are being cheated you will lead them to think a more radicalized solution is fair. Those who you deem over compensated in the current system will likely being angry for both receiving less and for being told they are currently unfair.

    Similarly you have decided that some people works hard but receive inadequate compensation or recognition while others who barely do any useful work receive many resources. I imagine that many people people who you have deemed over paid/ over recognized and performing barely useful work would deem themselves inadequately compensation and recognized. This too leads to everyone being anger because, as you suggest, in a fair system, those who are under appreciated want more.

    Finally you say that politicians discuss issues like immigrants and free trade because they don't have real answers. Many people (perhaps incorrectly) strongly feel that their own welfare is hurt significantly by those issues and want strong changes on those fronts.
  11. Germany
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    28 Apr '16 19:02
    Originally posted by quackquack
    You said "a small segment of society reaps all the benefits of the labour." It is hard to believe that you believe ALL the benefits go to one segment, but when you exaggerate in hopes of trying to convince groups that they are being cheated you will lead them to think a more radicalized solution is fair. Those who you deem over compensated in the curre ...[text shortened]... their own welfare is hurt significantly by those issues and want strong changes on those fronts.
    You said "a small segment of society reaps all the benefits of the labour." It is hard to believe that you believe ALL the benefits go to one segment, but when you exaggerate in hopes of trying to convince groups that they are being cheated you will lead them to think a more radicalized solution is fair. Those who you deem over compensated in the current system will likely being angry for both receiving less and for being told they are currently unfair.

    My bad - I underestimated the prevalence of autism on this forum. Replace "all" by "much of" if you prefer. I'm not sure which "radical" solutions you think I have proposed here?

    Similarly you have decided that some people works hard but receive inadequate compensation or recognition [...]

    No, it's just what some people might and do feel.

    Finally you say that politicians discuss issues like immigrants and free trade because they don't have real answers. Many people (perhaps incorrectly) strongly feel that their own welfare is hurt significantly by those issues and want strong changes on those fronts.

    Yeah, but that's because those people are ignorant.
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    28 Apr '16 19:30
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    [b]You said "a small segment of society reaps all the benefits of the labour." It is hard to believe that you believe ALL the benefits go to one segment, but when you exaggerate in hopes of trying to convince groups that they are being cheated you will lead them to think a more radicalized solution is fair. Those who you deem over compensated in the ...[text shortened]... want strong changes on those fronts.

    Yeah, but that's because those people are ignorant.[/b]
    Perhaps you disagree, but I believe that any proposal where you take from one group and give to another will be controversial. It will be even more controversial if you tell them the reason we are taking from you is that you simply don't deserve the benefit.
    Your suggestion that we SHOULD redistribute is your OPINION, not a fact. As is the level to which we should distribute and which people are adequate recognized fro their work and are under or over paid. Certainly you'd understand why someone who thinks they are under recognized and under compensated would be angry when you consider it a fact that they are over recognized and over compensated and attempt to change their level of pay.
    The increased desire of individuals who feel that government needs to impose their person views on the rest of society leads to anger by those who don't see government's role as to make their life more difficult.
    I happen to agree with you that tariffs and immigration restrictions are both counter productive and responses to non-issues. But I understand that if we impose our/mine/ anyone's views on others they might get angry.
  13. Standard memberDeepThought
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    28 Apr '16 19:37
    Originally posted by vivify
    The wars in the middle east have "died down"? The War in Iraq? The Gaza Strip? ISIS? The Arab Spring? Libya?

    There's constant turmoil in the mid-east, much of which the U.S. is responsible for.
    Yes, that was causing me some dissonance.
  14. Standard memberDeepThought
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    28 Apr '16 19:46
    Originally posted by quackquack
    Perhaps you disagree, but I believe that any proposal where you take from one group and give to another will be controversial. It will be even more controversial if you tell them the reason we are taking from you is that you simply don't deserve the benefit.
    Your suggestion that we SHOULD redistribute is your OPINION, not a fact. As is the level to wh ...[text shortened]... es. But I understand that if we impose our/mine/ anyone's views on others they might get angry.
    Where in Kazet's post did he say we "SHOULD redistribute"? You should try to focus in what is in the post, not what you think "SHOULD" be in the post.

    Just a point, board room pay is excessive, no study has ever managed to establish that they add any value. Recently there have been a number of cases where ordinary staff have been expected to accept a below inflation pay rise when the already overpaid board members have received pay rises significantly above inflation, so naturally the people who do add value become annoyed. This is not a matter of opinion, it'll take some research, so I'd rather not, but if pushed I can cite examples of this. Since you seem to agree with this it is not clear what your argument actually is.
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    28 Apr '16 20:10
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    Where in Kazet's post did he say we "SHOULD redistribute"? You should try to focus in what is in the post, not what you think "SHOULD" be in the post.

    Just a point, board room pay is excessive, no study has ever managed to establish that they add any value. Recently there have been a number of cases where ordinary staff have been expected to accept ...[text shortened]... ples of this. Since you seem to agree with this it is not clear what your argument actually is.
    It is your opinion, not a fact, that board room pay is excessive and that they don't add value. It is also your belief, not a fact, that staff deserve a pay raise. Even for those who agree with your opinion, their will be differing opinion on who should be paid more and who she be paid less. Everyone can believe that, if their ideas were implemented, society would be better. However, regardless of the sincerity of your beliefs, opinion does not become fact and you merely expressed your opinion.
    Just understand that those who have contrary opinions and want different policy based on their opinions. Thus, if your policy is implemented, it is foreseeable that others will be angry (as you might be if someone with a differing view of fairness had their policy implemented).
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