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Debates Forum

  1. Subscriber invigorate
    Only 1 F in Uckfield
    05 Dec '13 22:31
    The secular world has lost it's father today.

    Will any non religious leader ever command such reverance again?
  2. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    05 Dec '13 22:37
    A man of astonishing moral authority.
  3. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    05 Dec '13 22:38
    Originally posted by invigorate
    The secular world has lost it's father today.

    Will any non religious leader ever command such reverance again?
    I'm going to go out on a limb here and say 'yes'.
  4. 05 Dec '13 22:41
    Originally posted by invigorate
    The secular world has lost it's father today.

    Will any non religious leader ever command such reverance again?
    When Nelson Mandela grew old, it became safe enough for nearly all
    white people to embrace, or at least to pretend to admire, him.
    Something nearly similar has happened to Muhammad Ali in the USA.

    But the US government long condemned Nelson Mandela as a 'terrorist'.
    To this day, more than a few right-wing white people (including some
    writers in this forum) loathe Nelson Mandela.

    "I don't like Nelson Mandela."
    --Garry Kasparov (quoted by Fred Waitzkin as one reason why Kasparov
    refused to participate in a demonstration against apartheid in South Africa)
  5. 05 Dec '13 23:17
    Originally posted by finnegan
    A man of astonishing moral authority.
    Yeah he was a paragon of virtue, planting bombs in bus and railroad stations, restaurants, etc, randomly killing women and children.
    His wife Minnie was involved with a group that "Necktied" people....look it up for the horror that involved.
    Real black heroes.
  6. Standard member shavixmir
    Guppy poo
    05 Dec '13 23:30
    Here's for Nelson and Stephen:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLg-8Jxi5aE

    Obviously I hate the concessions he had to make to the West's capitalism, but he did stand and fight for what he believed!

    I will miss him.
  7. 05 Dec '13 23:35
    Originally posted by invigorate
    The secular world has lost it's father today.

    Will any non religious leader ever command such reverance again?
    Obama?

    He did win the Nobel Prize as well as the award for transparency. I dare say that Nelson can't boast of these two accomplishments.
  8. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    05 Dec '13 23:42 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by KilgoreTrout15
    Yeah he was a paragon of virtue, planting bombs in bus and railroad stations, restaurants, etc, randomly killing women and children.
    His wife Minnie was involved with a group that "Necktied" people....look it up for the horror that involved.
    Real black heroes.
    Mandela was not a pacifist and i suspect that you are not one either. The Right in the USA favour the right of citizens to carry weapons on the argument that these will enable them to overthrow or prevent tyranny so there is nothing in principle for you to object to if weapons were used in apartheid South Africa to overthrow tyranny. The case for using violence to overthrow oppression was set out systematically by Steve Biko (murdered by the South African police) and in general the ANC were very aware of the need to pursue their ends in a morally justified manner. However, their capacity to provoke and to feed violence was immense and the actual violence employed was a fraction of that which was possible.

    It is for this reason that Mandela's role in achieving a negotiated transition to majority role was so remarkable. For the white regime to accept and facilitate this orderly transition, it was essential that they could give their own supporters some assurance that they would not be subject to a racially based pogrom and indeed that has not happened.

    So your ignorant remark about violence is misplaced. You have said only a few days back that you favour segregation on lines of skin colour for the USA so your position is transparent. Had your sort of thinking prevailed in South Africa then the outcome would have been horrendous.

    Yet his greatest achievement, and the one for which was elevated above the realms of ordinary politics, was his humble message of forgiveness.

    Despite the decades of abuse by the apartheid government which murdered, tortured, and defended its right to segregate people on the basis of their race, Mr Mandela emerged from prison in 1990 with a message of reconciliation.

    He led the African National Congress (ANC) to power in 1994, and served one five-year term.

    Instead of avenging the the crimes of the apartheid regime, the former amateur boxer and enthusiastic gardener established a Truth and Reconciliation Commission, under the stewardship of Archbishop Desmond Tutu, which adopted a policy of confession, forgiveness and resolution that helped move South Africa towards the egalitarian democracy of today.
  9. 06 Dec '13 00:34 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by finnegan to KilgoreTrout15
    Mandela was not a pacifist and i suspect that you are not one either. The Right in the USA favour the right of citizens to carry weapons on the argument that these will enable them to overthrow or prevent tyranny so there is nothing in principle for you to object to if weapons were used in apartheid South Africa to overthrow tyranny. The ...[text shortened]... and resolution that helped move South Africa towards the egalitarian democracy of today.[/quote]
    In another thread, I pointed out to KilgoreTrout15 that Nelson Mandela's
    support of armed struggle against apartheid in South Africa should be
    placed in its historical context. There was much more violence by
    white-ruled South Africa's army, police, and security forces against
    non-white civilians than by the ANC's military wing against white civilians.
    Of course, KilgoreTrout15 would not care about historical context because
    he's an extremely racist white American who regards white lives as far more
    important than non-white lives.

    Israel's Prime Minister Netanyahu (disingenuously) praised Nelson Mandela.
    If Nelson Mandela were still alive, he might mention the fact that Israel
    was South Africa's closest ally (with major military cooperation) until the
    end of apartheid. According to Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi, a professor at
    Haifa University (I heard him say this in person), the overwhelming majority
    of Israeli Jews supported Israel's close alliance with South Africa and had
    few, if any, moral objections to apartheid. I have no doubt that Benjamin
    Netanyahu also supported Israel's alliance with pro-apartheid South Africa
    and, like South Africa's government, regarded Nelson Mandela as a
    'terrorist' before the end of apartheid. Israel was an enemy of Nelson
    Mandela and the ANC until it became expedient to pretend otherwise.

    While I admire Nelson Mandela, I believe that his life and work should be
    presented accurately. Unfortunately, some of his enthusiastic young
    admirers seem determined to turn Nelson Mandela into a 'plaster saint'.
    I have overheard a few young people saying that they admire Nelson
    Mandela so much because he *always opposed all forms of violence*
    in his struggle against apartheid. That's not historically accurate.
    Let's remember Nelson Mandela in all his complex, nuanced humanity
    rather than as a 'politically safe' icon (too available for expropriation).
  10. 06 Dec '13 09:29
    Originally posted by whodey
    Obama?

    He did win the Nobel Prize as well as the award for transparency. I dare say that Nelson can't boast of these two accomplishments.
    Nelson Mandela did win the Nobel Peace Prize.