Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Germany
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    15 Oct '18 15:33
    @quackquack said
    The broad consensus among the voting public is determined by elections. Everything else is simply b.s.
    You think that all socio-economic research is "b.s."?
  2. Joined
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    15 Oct '18 15:55
    @kazetnagorra said
    You think that all socio-economic research is "b.s."?
    We have elections and people decide what is important to them. We might both agree that many of the issues that people find important are silly. But as long as we allow people to vote. It is the vote that counts.
    Elections are decided by the personality of the candidate and issues that many people feel are paramount to their way of life (gun control, rights to arms or immigration or death penalty) I'm not sure what research helps someone decide issues that are morally important or important to the fundamental way they live.
  3. Germany
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    15 Oct '18 16:09
    @quackquack said
    We have elections and people decide what is important to them. We might both agree that many of the issues that people find important are silly. But as long as we allow people to vote. It is the vote that counts.
    Elections are decided by the personality of the candidate and issues that many people feel are paramount to their way of life (gun control, rights to arms ...[text shortened]... elps someone decide issues that are morally important or important to the fundamental way they live.
    You don't think that understanding the broader implications of government policies is important for casting an informed vote?
  4. Joined
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    15 Oct '18 16:21
    @kazetnagorra said
    You don't think that understanding the broader implications of government policies is important for casting an informed vote?
    If you believe abortion is murder (I don't but some people do) how exactly does further information change your views? If you feel that immigrants are changing your community unfavorably or taking your jobs does it matter that there is evidence that it is beneficial for society as a whole. If you feel Affirmative Action unfavorably helps groups over your group does it matter if a researcher says you owe something to someone else. I think people vote with their specific concerns in mind not broad policy implications.
  5. Germany
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    15 Oct '18 16:29
    @quackquack said
    If you believe abortion is murder (I don't but some people do) how exactly does further information change your views? If you feel that immigrants are changing your community unfavorably or taking your jobs does it matter that there is evidence that it is beneficial for society as a whole. If you feel Affirmative Action unfavorably helps groups over your group does it ...[text shortened]... eone else. I think people vote with their specific concerns in mind not broad policy implications.
    I think people vote with their specific concerns in mind not broad policy implications.

    That is precisely my point - this is an example of substitution (see my earlier post in this thread). Whether or not people have to go through a minor background check to purchase a firearm is not nearly as important for people as the security in their neighbourhood, the overall state of the economy, the quality of infrastructure, health care and education, etc. etc. Most people are unable to grasp the latter - on the other hand, they can reason along the lines of "guns good... Republicans like guns... I like Republicans!"

    What is actually important for people are those broader implications, which is why people should look towards informed people who have some understanding of those broader implications.
  6. Joined
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    15 Oct '18 16:35
    @kazetnagorra said
    I think people vote with their specific concerns in mind not broad policy implications.

    That is precisely my point - this is an example of substitution (see my earlier post in this thread). Whether or not people have to go through a minor background check to purchase a firearm is not nearly as important for people as the security in their neighbourhood, the ove ...[text shortened]... eople should look towards informed people who have some understanding of those broader implications.
    I'm for gun control and I honestly think society would be better if we banned guns from the ordinary citizen. But, when I went to college I met a guy from a small town in Michigan. He told me that they closed his high school on the first day of hunting season because every male (except him) cut school to go hunting that day. Guns apparently are fundamental to their way of life. They don't believe the have a gun problem in their town. They don't want to pay for a registration or a background check or a possible tax on their guns. They don't believe urban gangs are a gun problem. They believe it is an urban problem and frankly your research isn't going to change the views of everyone is a town that has only one traffic light. People vote based on stories like this not data like yours.
  7. Germany
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    15 Oct '18 16:52
    @quackquack said
    I'm for gun control and I honestly think society would be better if we banned guns from the ordinary citizen. But, when I went to college I met a guy from a small town in Michigan. He told me that they closed his high school on the first day of hunting season because every male (except him) cut school to go hunting that day. Guns apparently are fundamental to their wa ...[text shortened]... town that has only one traffic light. People vote based on stories like this not data like yours.
    I'm not disagreeing with you that many people vote based only on one or two minor issues.

    I'm saying that people vote against their overall interests by doing so.
  8. Garner, NC
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    15 Oct '18 16:56
    @kazetnagorra said
    Suppose you need brain surgery. Who would you trust more to know what techniques to apply for successful surgery, yourself or a brain surgeon?
    A benevolent dictator will always work better than letting people live free.

    Some are smart enough to not put faith in finding a benevolent dictator, and hope to settle for just being free.
  9. Joined
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    15 Oct '18 17:05
    @kazetnagorra said
    I'm not disagreeing with you that many people vote based only on one or two minor issues.

    I'm saying that people vote against their overall interests by doing so.
    You seem to think researcher's know what is in someone's over all interest. Different people put different relative importance on different goals. Even if social science can tell you whether you'd benefit over a particular economic plan, it cannot tell you what issues you ought to value, what is morally important and how much you ought to sacrifice for the benefit of someone else.
  10. Joined
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    15 Oct '18 17:31
    Trump supporters are easy to see.

    They drag their knuckles on the ground, they tend to question EVERYTHING, annoyingly so, even things science has settled, and they are all white as the pure driven snow.
  11. Germany
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    15 Oct '18 17:34
    @quackquack said
    You seem to think researcher's know what is in someone's over all interest. Different people put different relative importance on different goals. Even if social science can tell you whether you'd benefit over a particular economic plan, it cannot tell you what issues you ought to value, what is morally important and how much you ought to sacrifice for the benefit of someone else.
    A brain surgeon will generally know better than a patient what kind of brain surgery to apply for a successful surgery, despite not knowing much about the patient.

    People do not have a magical ability to always know what is best for them.
  12. Joined
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    15 Oct '18 17:40
    @kazetnagorra said

    People do not have a magical ability to always know what is best for them.
    But government does.

    EXCEPT Trump, of course, but I think that is only common sense.
  13. Germany
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    15 Oct '18 18:21
    @whodey said
    But government does.

    EXCEPT Trump, of course, but I think that is only common sense.
    A government is an abstract concept and cannot "know" anything.
  14. Joined
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    15 Oct '18 19:15
    @kazetnagorra said
    A brain surgeon will generally know better than a patient what kind of brain surgery to apply for a successful surgery, despite not knowing much about the patient.

    People do not have a magical ability to always know what is best for them.
    Much like a dictator, you may think you know what is best for people. But, despite offering your services, I believe most people would rather decide for themselves. I'm not a quick as you are to believe that they are making the wrong choice simply because you've done research and you know what they should prefer.
  15. Germany
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    15 Oct '18 19:51
    @quackquack said
    Much like a dictator, you may think you know what is best for people. But, despite offering your services, I believe most people would rather decide for themselves. I'm not a quick as you are to believe that they are making the wrong choice simply because you've done research and you know what they should prefer.
    Again, I am not disputing that people make wrong decisions and often fail to follow good advice.

    Imagine that someone is attempting to perform brain surgery on themselves by continuously attempting to slam faeces into their skull. No matter how strongly they might believe that this is an appropriate way to perform brain surgery, they are still better off going to a specialist to have it performed.
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