Please turn on javascript in your browser to play chess.
Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. 06 Jul '16 01:09 / 1 edit
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/05/zambians-hit-back-at-white-saviour-gap-yah-memoir

    "Briton's African Gap Year Memoir Sparks Angry Twitter Response"
    --Maeve Shearlaw (5 July 2016)

    As a privileged 18 year old from the UK, Louise LItton spent her gap year in Zambia.
    She recently has written a memoir about her experiences. Her book has
    been fiercely denounced by Zambians (both black and white) for being
    extremely factually inaccurate and promoting racist stereotypes of Africa.
    At best, it seems that Louise Litton wrote a very implausible novel loosely based
    upon her some of experiences, which she seems eager to use for self-promotion.
    Her critics have accused her of outright lying and shamelessly fabricating incidents.
    (If so, she would seem well-qualified to write at RHP.)

    Now, as a 'grown woman' (her words), Louise Litton is an aspiring actress and
    film producer in Hollywood. She may hope that someone buys the film rights to her book.
  2. 06 Jul '16 16:37
    Haha yes Zambia is a great place:
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3371805/Singer-raped-14-year-old-girl-pardoned-Zambia-s-ambassador-against-violence-women.html
  3. Subscriber kmax87
    You've got Kevin
    06 Jul '16 16:47 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by FishHead111
    Haha yes Zambia is a great place:
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3371805/Singer-raped-14-year-old-girl-pardoned-Zambia-s-ambassador-against-violence-women.html
    So true. Despicable acts by filth, against humanity only happened after the great white Imperial nations withdrew their patronage from these former heathen, savage lands.
  4. 06 Jul '16 17:55
    Originally posted by FishHead111
    Haha yes Zambia is a great place:
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3371805/Singer-raped-14-year-old-girl-pardoned-Zambia-s-ambassador-against-violence-women.html
    Given that FishHead111 claims that there's an ongoing genocide of white people in South Africa,
    he's far from being the most informed or 'balanced' writer about what's happening in southern Africa.
    Twhitehead, who was born in and grew up in Zambia, knows much more about his country.

    Of course, I believe that it's appalling for a convicted rapist to be appointed to such a position.
    But Zambia's far from being the only society with problems of violence against women and girls.

    Returning to this thread's subject, there's no credible evidence that Louise Linton (then an
    18 year old Scotswoman) was ever in any particular danger of being raped in Zambia.
    Gerard Zytkow says that he knew Louise Linton during her time (1999) in Zambia.

    "Part of me feels sorry for this delusional young girl (Louise Linton). But in fact I would
    like to wring her neck for writing so much rubbish."
    --Gerard Zytkow (originally on Facebook, quoted at the BBC (trending) website)
  5. Subscriber mchill
    cryptogram
    06 Jul '16 18:55
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/05/zambians-hit-back-at-white-saviour-gap-yah-memoir

    "Briton's African Gap Year Memoir Sparks Angry Twitter Response"
    --Maeve Shearlaw (5 July 2016)

    As a privileged 18 year old from the UK, Louise LItton spent her gap year in Zambia.
    She recently has written a memoir about her experiences. Her book has
    b ...[text shortened]... ss and
    film producer in Hollywood. She may hope that someone buys the film rights to her book.
    You seem to enjoy writing about the many evil deeds done by white people. Why is this?
  6. 06 Jul '16 19:28
    Originally posted by mchill
    You seem to enjoy writing about the many evil deeds done by white people. Why is this?
    First of all, I don't believe that Louise Linton's quite 'evil', though perhaps close.
    Evidently, Louise Linton (now an actress, about age 35, in Hollywood) wrote a bad novel
    and attempted to pass it off as her memoir of real experiences in Zambia. So people
    have condemned her for lying and exploiting racist stereotypes in order to promote herself.
    Donald Trump has now achieved much success through lying and exploiting racist stereotypes to promote himself.

    Has Mchill noticed yet (if not willfully blind) that this forum has many white American or
    British writers who frequently attempt to incite hatred against non-white people, particularly Muslims?
    Does Mchill have any objection to white people inciting racist hatred against other people?

    *If* it were true that this forum had many black American writers, for instance, who liked
    to incite hatred against white people, I would comment more about it.

    *If* it were true that the USA had many black policemen shooting and killing unarmed white
    suspects, then I would comment more about it. But it's untrue, so I make no such comments.

    The reality is that this forum has many white racists who feel free to spew their racism.
    And many, if not most, white people here like to keep playing the victim of racism.
  7. Subscriber Sleepyguy
    Reepy Rastardly Guy
    06 Jul '16 19:42
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    *If* it were true that this forum had many black American writers, for instance, who liked to incite hatred against white people, I would comment more about it.
    Why would they have to black American writers? Why not ambiguously gendered Chinese writers who like to incite hatred against white people, for example?
  8. 06 Jul '16 20:04 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by Sleepyguy
    Why would they have to black American writers? Why not ambiguously gendered Chinese writers who like to incite hatred against white people, for example?
    First of all, almost all the Americans here like to act as though racism must be a black-white binary.
    (For a recent example, when I wrote 'non-white', FishHead111 thought 'non-white' must mean 'black'.)
    Few of the Americans here seem to have much awareness or concern about anti-Latino
    racism, though I expect that to change as Latino numbers and political power grow.
    None of the Americans here seem to have any awareness or concern about anti-Asian
    racism, and I don't expect that to change at all because Asians are too weak politically.

    So, in this forum, racism is usually an argument about black-white issues in the USA.
    I wish that this forum were less ethnocentrically American, but I cannot change that reality.

    Sleepyguy has a record of jumping to false conclusions and spewing insults and lies to attack me personally.
    And Sleepyguy's a right-wing white American racist who attempts to defend or excuse all
    except the most obvious racism (e.g. FishHead111's) from other right-wing white Americans.

    And my many white relatives will be amused by Sleepyguy's claim that I 'like to incite hatred against white people'.
    Indeed, there's at least one white person (who has no 'ambiguity' about my gender)
    who likes to tell me that I incite the opposite of 'hatred' in that person.
  9. 07 Jul '16 00:38 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by kmax87
    So true. Despicable acts by filth, against humanity only happened after the great white Imperial nations withdrew their patronage from these former heathen, savage lands.
    Not at all, it's been happening in Africa since the beginning of time, long before whites ever showed up, and it continued while whites controlled various African countries. It's never stopped. It never will.
  10. 07 Jul '16 00:42
    Originally posted by FishHead111 to Kmax87
    Not at all, it's been happening in Africa since the beginning of time, long before whites ever showed up.
    Speaking of 'Africa since the beginning of time', where does FishHead111 imagine that white people came from originally?
  11. 07 Jul '16 00:48
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Speaking of 'Africa since the beginning of time', where does FishHead111 imagine that white people came from originally?
    Blah blah blah whites came from Africa blah blah blah.
    So early man migrated north out of sub-saharan Africa and into Asia and Europe 50,000 years ago (or whatever, quibble about the date all you want) and evolved into the white and asian races, so what?
    It has nothing to do with today.
  12. 07 Jul '16 02:35
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/05/zambians-hit-back-at-white-saviour-gap-yah-memoir

    "Briton's African Gap Year Memoir Sparks Angry Twitter Response"
    --Maeve Shearlaw (5 July 2016)

    As a privileged 18 year old from the UK, Louise LItton spent her gap year in Zambia.
    She recently has written a memoir about her experiences. Her book has
    b ...[text shortened]... ss and
    film producer in Hollywood. She may hope that someone buys the film rights to her book.
    First of all, I apologise for misspellling Louise Linton's name as 'Louise Litton'.

    I hope that everyone who thumbs down my original post will buy Louise Linton's book.
    Even if it's full of falsehoods, it may be enjoyable as fiction. That's the least that I can do to help make amends
  13. Standard member sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    07 Jul '16 05:32
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    First of all, I apologise for misspellling Louise Linton's name as 'Louise Litton'.

    I hope that everyone who thumbs down my original post will buy Louise Linton's book.
    Even if it's full of falsehoods, it may be enjoyable as fiction. That's the least that I can do to help make amends
    Has it been proven to be lies? I of course have zero knowledge of the area, just wondered.
  14. 07 Jul '16 07:35 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Has it been proven to be lies? I of course have zero knowledge of the area, just wondered.
    Its complicated. The stories probably were exaggerated, but without knowing the exact location she stayed, it is hard to tell. It is also possible the Zambians criticising her have exaggerated too. In general, people who visit foreign countries often exaggerate their experiences there and have very different perspectives from those who live there permanently. At the same time, those who live there are often very defensive about their country.
    Interestingly, the people who complain the most about their experiences are often the same ones who miss it and return.

    From what I have seen in the articles about her so far, nothing she has said is totally implausible. She may, for example, have been genuinely scared of encountering Congolese rebels if she lived on the border with the DRC. Whether or not she could have actually encountered any, I do not know. But there really is only a tiny part of Zambia where that was ever a genuine risk. At about the time she was in Zambia, I lived in Ndola which is not where she was, but is near the Congo boarder. There is a road that runs near the boarder which had a heavy army presence because of the danger of armed Congolese crossing the border and robbing people. I did drive along that road once or twice and was nervous doing so, and most people avoided it when they could (there was a longer, safer route).
  15. 07 Jul '16 18:41
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Has it been proven to be lies? I of course have zero knowledge of the area, just wondered.
    First of all, please note that I wrote 'falsehoods' rather than 'lies'.

    Here's an article by Lydia Ngoma, a Zambian who created the hashtag #LintonLies on Twitter:
    http://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2016/jul/06/louise-lintons-zambia-is-not-the-zambia-i-know

    "Louise LInton's Zambia is not the Zambia I Know"
    --Lydia Ngoma (6 July 2016)

    If I may add a fact to this article, there were bloody conflicts between Hutus and Tutsis in Burundi
    in addition to Rwanda (mentioned by Lydia Ngoma), the site of the infamous 1994 genocide.

    My impression is that Louise Linton, now a Hollywood actress, wrote a book blending her
    imaginative fiction (likely fabricating characters or incidents) with a few facts, hoping that
    her intended audience of Westerners would be too ignorant to notice any gaping holes.

    Lydia Ngoma also criticizes the Western media ('The Telegraph' is a right-wing British newspaper)
    for publishing Louise Linton's book without apparently doing any basic fact-checking.
    Unfortunately, it's all too common for Westerners to be so complacently ignorant, not only
    about Africa but about non-Western societies in general. I have noticed some Western
    writers successfully selling their stories in which they propagate stereotypically ignorant
    and factually implausible images about some 'exotic' non-Western peoples and cultures.