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Developers Forum

  1. 29 Jul '08 22:30
    Originally posted on the Chess site to test the water.
    They want it put forward. It received 3 recs.

    Thread 97757

    I think anybody banned should have all their wins and draws
    turned to losses and recaluculated rating points giving to their opponents.

    It the very least the site boffins can do.

    (if a case arrives where a known cheat has played another known cheat
    then the result is void - see I have thought this out).

    They have the list of opponents and the results it would relatively
    easy to run a reverse program through their profile.

    It happens in every other sport if cheats are exposed.
    Why not here?

    Please don't come back and say new hardware required, cost of programmer etc.
    I could knock up an Excel Macro that would do the job in 30 minutes
    and that includes having a tea break.

    There are some clever guys on here, they could get one of those to write
    the program for them. Offer them a years free sub.

    Simple banning is not enough.
    There must be some kind of renumeration for the cheats victims.

    Method:

    This will only affect the cheats wins and draws .

    The games are regraded using the cheats grade at the time the game was played.

    If you have any comments - please see original thread as it may
    answer some of the questions you are about to ask.

    I have not been the victim of a cheat so I am not on a personal crusade.
  2. 30 Jul '08 22:47
    The thread post is wrong - it's Thread 97767.

    Sorry about that.
  3. Standard member Daemon Sin
    I'm A Mighty Pirate™
    31 Jul '08 16:56
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    I think anybody banned should have all their wins and draws
    turned to losses and recaluculated rating points giving to their opponents.

    Please don't come back and say new hardware required, cost of programmer etc.
    I could knock up an Excel Macro that would do the job in 30 minutes
    and that includes having a tea break.
    Changing the Win/Loss/Draw records is a possibility but recalculating ratings
    would be almost impossible.

    Altering the rating of a single completed game would have MASSIVE reprecussions. It would affect the rating calculation for every single game after that plus the ratings for every single opponent he played in those games. Then as the opponents ratings had changed, it would mean that any rating calculations for their games would be affected which in turn includes any of their opponents ratings as well. It would be an exponential ripple affect that would end up causing a large portion of the sites users' ratings to change because they'd played someone who'd played someone who'd played someone who'd cheated months ago. And that's just one game...
  4. 31 Jul '08 23:04 / 2 edits
    There is no ripple effect, the game in question is
    the only game regraded.

    Let us say the cheats name was Brown.

    This only affects games where Brown won or drew.
    Brown losses do come into consideration.

    Browns grade does not go up or down but stays constant.

    Example:

    Brown cheated against 10 opponets.(No.1 to 10)

    Browns grade at time of playing players 1-5 was 2100.

    players 1-5 grades are given a grading adjustment for beating a 2100

    Browns grade at time of playing players 6-10 was 2150.

    players 6-10 grades are given a grading adjustment for beating a 2150

    Other games players 1-10 have played against other players do not
    come into the equation. Thay result was clean - no need to adjust.

    or

    Give each player who has lost against a cheat 10 extra points.

    Give each player who has drawn against a cheat 5 extra points.

    No need to start recalculating all games played after cheats games.

    It's just to give the victim in these cases something.
    If the guy never cheated they might have won.
    At the moment they have lost grading points
    I simply want the players concerned to be giving back what is theirs.
  5. Subscriber thaughbaer
    Duckfinder General
    03 Aug '08 10:44
    So people who lose to engine cheats should have their ratings artificially inflated as compensation ? Isn't this maniacal desire for a higher rating what caused the engine abuser to want to cheat in the first place ? As a 1700ish player I'd lose very few points for a single loss against a 2100ish player... in any case given the option I'd much rather the game be void than to be given points I didn't earn. If the engine abuser didn't cheat then his rating wouldn't have been 2100 in the first place so to give credit for beating a 2100 player is just plain wrong.
  6. 04 Aug '08 11:56
    Originally posted by thaughbaer
    If the engine abuser didn't cheat then his rating wouldn't have been 2100 in the first place so to give credit for beating a 2100 player is just plain wrong.
    That is an interesting point - if the guy did cheat to obtain a high
    grade then to give victim extra points would be wrong.

    OK - void all games. But players who lost still to be given back any
    points they lost.

    On a personal level, ratings mean nowt to me. But you only have to look
    at other threads to see how it is important to some players.

    You often get them coming onto the Forum cheering because they
    have crashed throigh the 1500 barrier.

    I was wanting to leave this on the main chess forum but was urged
    on by those who had lost out to pursue it.

    You have made a good point though.
  7. Standard member afx
    09 Aug '08 20:35
    Originally posted by Daemon Sin
    [b]Changing the Win/Loss/Draw records is a possibility but recalculating ratings
    would be almost impossible.
    [...]
    There are only 4.000.000 rated games, here. So recalculating
    all games and all players from their 1200-birth could be done in
    a view seconds. With all the database work, it will take some minutes.

    But please, DON'T DELETE SUCH GAMES! JUST MAKE THEM UNRATED!
    I had some very pretty games against persons, who where banned afterwards. I don't want to miss that games
  8. 09 Aug '08 22:18
    As Daemon Sin has already pointed out, the ripple effect of changing ratings would be a major headache. Everytime someone was found to be a cheater would mean some downtime for everybody while a whole round of recalculations was done.
    You can't just add rating points here and there - ratings are only adjusted at the completion of a game. Adding points outside of a game result would destroy the integrity of the database. You'd also never know what your rating was as it would keep changing based on who got banned today.

    Ratings are only a statistical yardstick of a players strength. Rating comparisons from one game to the next are pretty meaningless (in my view anyway). They give an indication of a trend - they are long term.
    Any blip from missing out on points will very quickly rectify itself.
    If I lose some points now from being cheated against, then my rating is lower when I next play someone - meaning I'll win more for my next win and lose less for my next loss.

    Also, as thaughbaer says - when an engine plays instead of a person, you are playing the engine at engine strength. So nothing to moan about really. It's not like the 1100 player won the games - it's the 2600 engine.

    Ban the cheat. Void the games. Move on.
    Simple innit.