Automatic timeout

Originally posted by ncrosby
Yes, you could do that, but then someone ELSE is going to find something wrong with THAT system and there will still be the same problems going on with complaining and arguing and all. This is a neverending problem that will never be changed to everyone's satisfaction.

If you see a problem with a certain person over using the vacation flag then by all m ...[text shortened]... sibilities of how to deal with all of this the way it is is all I am trying to say.

ncrosby🙂

But if you read and think about what we're proposing it actually stops all arguments.

It's fair and it's fool proof.

And if you're in Spokane you should seriously consider joining the TWIN PEAKS chess club! 😉

.Originally posted by ncrosby
I have to say I think everything is fine just the way it is. Russ has good thinking in why he refuses to change to auto timeout. There's a lot of things I don't think you all are considering here. For one, vacation status isn't just for holiday. Say it is changed to the way you are proposing, and vacation status is only available for 30 days out of t ...[text shortened]... is always going to be happy with it. So be it. I am going now to play some chess!

ncrosby🙂

No one can see the future,and this kind of things don't belong to the vacation flag thing.
I mean,if i have a car accident,I go to hospital for a week or more,I guess the last thing I care is the vacation flag,as you say.
Reading your statements makes me think that we agree on many things:you say you timedout someone who then bothered you:automatic timeout solves this kind of problems!
If T/O is automatic you won't see again threads like''timed out while on vacation'' or find in your inbox angry messages, because if your opponent gets timedout it will be only his fault.

I like very much the idea of vacation flag working like timebank:once you wasted it,you will have to respect the agreed time control or get timeouted.

For unthinkable things like no internet access for awhile,earthquakes, or flu forcing you to bed,it will be as usual:if you are able someway to put V.F. on it's a good thing,if not ,''amen'',having a game tomedout it's not the end of the world.

However it's just my way to see this matter,I understand that many people here can disagree for many other reasons...........the debate is open!

I know this isn't a democracy and that Russ and Chrismo are the ultimate authorities, but if I did have a vote, I would certainly vote against an auto timeout unless there were some easy and flexible way to opt out of it. I'm not playing chess so that I can cut throats or have my own cut. I'm playing to have fun. I normally like a relatively short TO but I don't really care that much about the TB. I just prefer reasonably regular moves. OTOH, I don't see any reason to say that someone just can't get sick, go on vacation or have a busy season at work once in a while. I'm playing a regular (i.e., not tournament) game with a guy I have played a couple of times. We're playing at 3TO/7TB time control, but he had an opportunity to go to a professional conference that took him away for 10 days. There's NO WAY I would want to time him out for that. I suppose we ought to have picked a different time control, but you can't always anticipate that sort of thing. Normally he plays reasonably often (as do I) and now his TB is depleted, but that doesn't bother me at all. I'm not going to claim the TO unless he just stops playing altogether, which I don't expect.

I could easily enough imagine a change where the VF stopped ALL clocks, but could only be used for a limited time, but would that apply to tournaments also? If so, then tournies would likely stretch on longer than they do now. If not, then what does it really accomplish?

If the vacation flag is respected by tournaments, then that's a big change and it means that games could take almost forever. The first tournament I entered was Pluto Grouped Random. It started on March 18, almost 3 months ago, with a 3/7 TO/TB and it still has 10 games unfinished in round 1. One of those is still on the 23rd move and that one looks like it could go on for some time yet. If one of those players were to take a 2-week vacation, it could hold up a tournament for a long time. OTOH, if the VF is not respected by tournaments, then we still have the same auto timeout feature and a player who goes on vacation will still have to find a computer somewhere and somehow to make moves while on vacation. In that case, s/he can't put up the vacation flag if it prevents her/him from making moves because the tournament will timeout.

I suppose it would be possible to make the VF stop the clocks in all but tournament games, while allowing moves only in tournament games. That seems like a lot of trouble though. Can that still be abused? Probably.

Ultimately, I doubt that we can stop all clock and flag abuse. If someone really wants to abuse those features, they will find some way to do it.

I think mrmist got the right point when he said "I do not see why the vacation system should be altered in a way that might be detrimental to the masses, purely to be less abusable in a few cases." Basically, it's an optimization problem, and one should always optimize for the normal cases. The exceptions can be handled in some other way. IMNSHO, the normal case here is that people who put up their VF do so because they are going on vacation. Abusers are the exception rather than the rule. I think it would be a mistake to remove flexibility in dealing with issues just for the odd abuser. And I don't think the only, or best, solution need involve foretelling the future.

Paul

Good reply prn. I should have also noted that about myself. I am pretty tough on timeouts in tournaments, but in regular games it depends on who I am playing and what mood I am in. My sister and I play regularly, and she hasn't made a move now in a couple of months. But I certainly don't want to end the game. There are a lot of users here I would not timeout, because I enjoy the GAME and not the win so much. If games were automatically timed out after the vacation flag was used up, I'm sure there are tons of people who wouldn't even want to play here because like I said, in a lot of instances it's about the game. What a waste to be playing a game that I can't finish because of the system if it's a game I'd rather wait and finish.

ncrosby🙂

Originally posted by Exy
And if you're in Spokane you should seriously consider joining the TWIN PEAKS chess club! 😉[/b]

Why if I'm from Spokane?🙂

ncrosby🙂

Originally posted by ncrosby
Why if I'm from Spokane?🙂

ncrosby🙂

It's right near where the show was set and filmed.

http://www.snoqualmiefalls.com/

Originally posted by ncrosby
There are a lot of users here I would not timeout, because I enjoy the GAME and not the win so much.

This would be one of my main reasons for being against an automatic timeout.

A victory through a timeout would be a hollow one, and in many cases could/would see the best part of the game missed out because someone didn't move for a day or whatnot.

If it ever did get implemented, I think it should be an option.

Originally posted by Exy
But if you read and think about what we're proposing it actually stops all arguments.

It's fair and it's fool proof.

And if you're in Spokane you should seriously consider joining the [b]TWIN PEAKS chess club! 😉[/b]

I could write a lot on tis because you are all writing perfect sense from your own perspective and the way you use the site. Surfice to say forcing auto T/O's on people would be a tragedy for people who want to let a T/O slip because they are enjoying the game.

I slip beyond T/O all the time and my opponents often do the same. We don't mind because we know there is reason. If an opponent did T/O on me than I'd be disappointed but that'd be it. It's your judgement whether to T/O on someone or not, whether their use of VF or just plain lack of play is justified. It might be ocncidered nice to give them a warning that slow play won't be tolerated first but it's your right to T/O if you can and if you can't make that call then that's your problem. Don't hide behind auto T/O's to the detriment of others.[

Automatic time outs could be introduced once the following problems have been resolved.

There are two problems with the current vacation system.

1) It doesn't prevent people who are genuinely away from being timed out maliciously.

2) It allows people who aren't genuinely away to abuse it in the hope that soft people won't time them out while their flag is on.

My recommendation to fix this was that putting the Vacation Flag on stops the clock, prevents people from being timed out (manually OR automatically), and stops the player from moving whilst their flag is on.

HOWEVER, users are only allowed to use their Vacation Flag for a limited number of days - I think 30 is a reasonable number - this will stop people from putting it on every weekend to avoid time outs.

Once this system is in place, then all arguments over times outs whilst on holiday would stop, and at that point, seeing that the flag stops the clock, then I think Automatic Time outs for those not using their Vacation Flag would be feasable.

Don't forget we have the option to select 28 day time outs and then a further 28 day time bank. If you don't want to be timed out then don't play short games.

Why do people who accept 3 or 7 day time out games and then play as though they're 21 and 28 day time out games deserve not to be timed out?

I don't like slow games. I won't play friendly games with long time outs, if you want to play me then I play 3 day time out games. I am fairly flexible about the length of the timebank but prefer no more than 7 days. Sometimes I have to accept longer if I want to set up a challenge with a particular clan, and I always regret it because the games drag on for months and months.

So, I guess I am a fast player and I chose my games based on my taste. Now, I accept that there are slow players out there and all I ask is that they don't accept games with short time outs that they're not prepared to keep to and then try and stall with the Vacation Flag.

This is about time management, discipline and being honest about the speed at which you can play.

I fully agree,this statement reflects perfectly my way of thinking about T/Os.

just now happened what I was saying before:I put some open invites with the ''no provisional''name and with 3 days T/O and noT/B.

A p1300 picked up the game,made one move and put the vacation flag on,even if he has still now a green dot next to his name.
In his profile there'sthe vacation message that says:''on holiday for a week,don't time me out''.

A question raises spontaneous to my mind:''Why he picked up the invite if tomorrow he's going on vacation?''......................... 😕

Originally posted by Exy

My recommendation to fix this was that putting the Vacation Flag on [b]stops the clock, prevents people from being timed out (manually OR automatically), and stops the player from moving whilst their flag is on.

HOWEVER, users are only allowed to use their Vacation Flag for a limited number of days ...[text shortened]... ] day time bank. If you don't want to be timed out then don't play short games.[/b]

But the arguments wouldn't stop, because the system wouldn't be to everyone's liking.

There's the following problems -

1. Lots of people are fine with the t/o and vacation system the way it is.

2. If you say that there's a limit to the amount of vacation time, then it's discriminating against people unfairly if they are away from the computer for longer than, say, 30 days.

3. Not everyone wants their games to t/o automatically *regardless* of the length of time that they have been running.

4. If vacation flags stop clocks, then tournaments will run forever and a day.

5. If vacation flags stop clocks, then that system is abusable by someone who doesn't mind using their 30 days all at once.

The only way I can see around it is that if people are really so unhappy with the status quo then some of the suggestions could be implemented as per game options, but the extra code and such would probably be massive.

This is about time management, discipline and being honest about the speed at which you can play.

<appology at the start, I'm in a foul mood and your avatar is of a smug guy which winds me up. The below post is not meant as a personal attack>

bollox. What is this, a sweatshop?

I play 7 day T/O's because it's an exception that I can't move for 7 days. Sometimes I can't and I eat into my timebank. Sometimes all my timebank is gone and at that point my opponent can chose if he wants to claim the game. He can also chose if he want to give me more time because he's enjoying the game.

And why should 30 days be the VF limit? Although I don't, everyone else at this plant gets 67 days vacation a year. Including the weekends inbetween thats 90 days. I get 20 days, but travel about 2 months a year on business where net access cannot be guarenteed.

T/O's were originally put in place to stop people abandoning games either because they were bored or because they were in a lost position. The vacation flag was introduced to show other players that you would be away for a while. It was never intended to block T/O and never should. Because people could be T/O while away T/B was intorduced to have protection during absence.

So it's simple: if your opponent has time left to move, be patient. If they have gone beyond this time but have T/B left then be patient. If the have no T/B left the you chose whether to T/O or not. The criteria you base that decision on are your own, whether that be because you're winning the game or that you've warned your oppo that slow play won't be accepted or that it's just your philosophy to T/O as soon as it's available. All are equally correct and your right, so where's the problem? Just because you can't make this kind of decision don't try to effect a change to the site that may be perfect from your perspective but would change the whole feel of the site for others.

That's Leland Palmer after his hair turns white!

I agree with you - it's about personal choice, that's what the timebanks are there for.

So, slow players please don't start or accept games with 3 day time outs and no or low timebanks because you are in danger of being timed out.

If people were just a bit more honest and realistic about the speed they actually play at we wouldn't have to argue over time outs. 😕

If people were just a bit more honest and realistic about the speed they actually play at we wouldn't have to argue over time outs. 😕[/b]

I play 7 day T/O's. Against players of my level or not so good I can move most every week day, but against better players I move once a week. This means my games last months. Can you tell me what your work schedule, social schedule, family commitments and heathis goin to be in 6 months time? I can't tell you what mine are goint to be in 1 months time so this does lead to me going over T/O. I don't however think this means I'm being dishonest about the speed at which I can play when I take 7 day T/O games.

You're right that people shouldn't take 3 day T/O's if they can't keep to them. If they take too long feel free to T/O if you wish, if nothing else it may teach them not to accept 3 day T/O's when they can't keep up. If you're feeling charitable you may wish to warn them at first offence that taking too long won't be tolerated, you may chose respect their vacation flag until it's clear that they are abusing it. You may wish to agree that the person chose 3 day T/O because they can play all week at work but not at the weekend so you won't T/O at the weekend. It's all at your discression, and as hard as that might be it's also part of the beauty of it because I can chose to hold open a game ofr 3 months for a 'friend' who's having a hard time and can't spare thought to chess, so that when he gets back on his feet he can resume playing and we can carry on the friendship.