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  1. 24 Aug '11 01:27
    What exactly does black get for the pawn besides a busted up pawn structure and the knight off on the side of the board?
  2. 24 Aug '11 02:01
    I take it you are asking about this variation.

  3. Standard member Exuma
    Anansi
    24 Aug '11 02:09
    I assume you are talking about the Ng5 line? You can play Bd7 instead of busting up the pawns if you like... Tomcik v Hudoba 1999

  4. 24 Aug '11 04:28
    Yes, that variation. But I'm wondering why nobody plays Nd4.

    Exuma - Doesn't Bd7 give up the tempo advantage you were looking for in the sac?
  5. Standard member Exuma
    Anansi
    24 Aug '11 09:56
    Originally posted by Kunsoo
    Yes, that variation. But I'm wondering why nobody plays Nd4.

    Exuma - Doesn't Bd7 give up the tempo advantage you were looking for in the sac?
    Yes cxb5 actually drives back the white pieces. I was just giving you an example of black keeping a pawn structure thing going and still not ending up totally on her heels
  6. Standard member atticus2
    Frustrate the Bad
    24 Aug '11 12:32 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Kunsoo
    I'm wondering why nobody plays Nd4
    People do play ...Nd4. They either play 5...b5; 6. Bf1 (Ulvestad var.); or 5...Nd4; 6. c3 b5; 7. Bf1 (Fritz var.). Because of frequent transpositions, the variation is often referred to as the Fritz-Ulvestad. Snappy play for both sides
  7. 24 Aug '11 12:40
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    I take it you are asking about this variation.

    [pgn]
    1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Na5 6. Bb5+ c6 7. dxc6
    bxc6 {Yes?} [/pgn]
    Play on a few more sample moves and it may become clearer....
    white retreats the bishop, black plays h6 hitting the knight etc
  8. 24 Aug '11 13:17
    Originally posted by Kunsoo
    What exactly does black get for the pawn besides a busted up pawn structure and the knight off on the side of the board?
    Black gets lots of wide open lines (avenues for attack) while white is slightly cramped. I like playing the white side since I view the pawn as a long term advantage and one can always give it back since white often has a better pawn structure for the ensuing endgane (if white can get there). White also MUST like to defend difficult positions. When I first started playing chess I played the white side of Two Knights and white side of Evan's Gambit. This forced me to learn how to defend and how to attack. One also needs to know lots of "book" to play these lines - difficult but fun positions for all.
  9. 24 Aug '11 15:03 / 1 edit
    And before you get to looking at the Black 5th move
    you might have to negotiate the other 4th moves instead of 4...d5

    4...Bc5 The Traxler or Wilkes Barre.


    This can produce some of the most fantastic theorectical positions
    ever seen on the chessboard.

    4....Nxe4 The Knickerbocker Glory. (I just made that name up...no idea what it's called.)


    If 5.Nxe4 d5 is OK for Black
    If 5.Nxf7 Qh4 and Black is doing just fine.

    Try picking the bones out of that one without a box.
    Imagine you are facing it for the first OTB.

    By coincidence this opening came up on another site I was following yesterday.
    The poster said some computers even rate 4...Nxe4 higher then 4...Bc5.

    I suspect that may be true because some the lines in the Traxler that eventually
    end up with a Black plus are so far in the future it may the horizon effect kicking in.
    Either that or somewhere in there a box has found something........?

    Ground here for Varenka and Mad Rook to explore.

    Me? I cannot play 4.Ng5. It moves a piece twice in the opening.
    I've tried but the ghost of Tarrasch appears and raps my knuckles.
  10. 24 Aug '11 16:55
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    If 5.Nxe4 d5 is OK for Black
    If 5.Nxf7 Qh4 and Black is doing just fine.

    Try picking the bones out of that one without a box.


    Have I got the position right? Engines like Bxf7+, Ke7, d4 with a big advantage to White
  11. 24 Aug '11 17:33
    No Quite.

    It's here.


    Ignore 4...d5. What does it favour 4...Nxe4 or 4...Bc5
  12. 24 Aug '11 18:28
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    No Quite.

    It's here.

    [fen]r1bqkb1r/pppp1ppp/2n2n2/4p1N1/2B1P3/8/PPPP1PPP/RNBQK2R b KQkq - 0 4[/fen]
    Ignore 4...d5. What does it favour 4...Nxe4 or 4...Bc5
    Six engines (including Stinkyfish) running simultaneously all prefer Nxe4 over Bc5, although all are convinced it is the lesser of two evils by only a small margin. All think Nxe4 is a lousy move and d5 is definitely the way to go.

    I played Nxe4 once when I was about 12. My opponent and the chess club head honcho called me an idiot and proceeded to hammer me flat. I think that may have been the last time I ever played e5 in reply to 1. e4 when playing OTB.
  13. 24 Aug '11 18:41 / 1 edit
    4...Nxe5 leads to a concrete plus.

    I wonder what it 'sees' when looking at 4...Bc5.
    Whole books have been written about that variation.

    Estrin gives 4...Bc5 20 pages and 4...Nxe4 gets literally one sentence.

    It's has either found something against the Wilkes Barre/Traxler or
    it has not run long enough. What does it like best for White.
    5.Bxf7+ or 5,Nxf7 (or neither?).
  14. 24 Aug '11 19:27
    Originally posted by Kunsoo
    Yes, that variation. But I'm wondering why nobody plays Nd4.

    Exuma - Doesn't Bd7 give up the tempo advantage you were looking for in the sac?
    I do. In fact, I have a game on now where I have just made that move. No comments please on the game in progress but there are a few examples of the same opening against the same player. Too busy at present to troll through my games to find one!
  15. 24 Aug '11 19:56
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    4What does it like best for White.
    5.Bxf7+ or 5,Nxf7 (or neither?).
    Analysis by Critter 1.2:
    1. +/- (1.04): 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 Bb6 8.Bf7+ Kd8 9.Nc3
    2. +/- (0.85): 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bb3 d6 7.c3 Rf8 8.Nf3 Bg4 9.d3