1. Account suspended
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    21 May '11 09:231 edit
    @ Leggy, beautiful game, thoroughly enjoyed that one, what a great thread this is turning out to be!
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    21 May '11 09:24
    Originally posted by Diophantus
    KIA is fine if you have a certain attitude to the opening. If you are happy to fight for equality as white (it should be the other way about really) then the KIA will suit you. However, it shares the same fault as many other reversed defences in that the defence relies on counter attack but when you have the first move there is nothing to counterattack un ...[text shortened]... e impending kingside attack that only materialises in KIDs and Pircs once white has castled.
    Hi, sorry to press you on this, but are there any examples of this extra move proving to be a hindrance?
  3. Account suspended
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    21 May '11 09:26
    Originally posted by torten
    Pro - sound opening,good weapon versus french,can be fun.
    Con - doesn't seem to work so well versus non french

    Here's a nice KIA game played by mere mortal 1800 patzers to illustrate it can lead to fun,exciting attacking chess.
    [pgn]1.e4 e6 2.d3 c5 3.g3 d5 4.Nd2 Qa5 5.Ngf3 Nc6 6.Bg2 dxe4 7.dxe4 Nf6
    8.O-O Bd7 9.c3 Be7 10.e5 Ng4 11.Re1 Qc7 12.Qe2 h5 13.h3 ...[text shortened]... xh3
    21.Bg2 Qg4 22.Bg5 f6 23.Bxh6 Rxh6 24.Rxe6+ Kf7 25.Qd7+ Kg6 26.Be4+ {Black resigns} [/pgn]
    also a thoroughly interesting game. Seems like the positions from KIA are quite rich.
  4. gumtree
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    21 May '11 10:17
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Hi, sorry to press you on this, but are there any examples of this extra move proving to be a hindrance?
    Here's the first one that immediately comes to mind. White tries to play a Classical King's Indian Defence reversed but fails to lose a tempo.

  5. Account suspended
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    21 May '11 21:131 edit
    yes i can see it, thanks for that, although , it must be said strictly playing by rote is not so good, for even in general terms, its understood that action on the flank should be countered by some action in the centre. So in the case of h5, perhaps c3 or some other counter attacking move was better rather than trying to play a reversed Kings Indian.
  6. gumtree
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    21 May '11 22:261 edit
    Yes, I think white just carried on with normal King's Indian moves, not realising that black had chucked a spanner in the works. It does point up the dangers inherent in reversed defences. If one wishes to play a reversed defence then one has to make sure that one does not arrive at a desired position too early as black may well find a way to avoid the intended position.

    A more common problem is black refusing to attack (he is supposed to be defending after all) and thus giving white nothing to counter attack. I have found that if black plays against the KIA as if playing the white side of a Classical Pirc (pawns on e5 and d5, knights on f6 and c6 and sensible places for bishops) then there is very little that white can do and he might as well offer a draw round about move ten! Fortunately most players don't do that at all and treat 1. Nf3 or 1. g3 as an invitation to grab equality and go over to the offensive immediately, which is just what a KID or Pirc player likes to see.

    KIAs after 1. e4 are an entirely different kettle of fish though. Here white has already grabbed a portion of the centre and the KIA is likely a response to something less aggressive than e5. This probably explains why the KIA after 1. e4 only really works against the French or e6 Sicilians. I did once try a KIA against a Petroff but that didn't end well.
  7. SubscriberPaul Leggett
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    23 May '11 22:34
    Originally posted by Diophantus
    Here's the first one that immediately comes to mind. White tries to play a Classical King's Indian Defence reversed but fails to lose a tempo.

    [pgn][Event "Ch Netherlands"]
    [Site "Rotterdam (Netherlands)"]
    [Date "1997.??.??"]
    [Round "7"]
    [White "Van Den Doel Erik (NED)"]
    [Black "Sosonko Gennadi (NED)"]
    [Result "0-1"]
    [ECO "A08"]
    [WhiteElo "2440 ...[text shortened]... 2+ 27. Kf2 Bxf3
    28. Kxf3 Qg4+ 29. Kg2 h1=Q+ 30. Kxh1 Qh3+ 0-1
    [/pgn]
    This is a good example of how playing by rote fails. I think the move order is flawed- if White plays 1. Nf3, I think he should play his queen's knight out first (best to the d2 square, in my opinion), and wait to see if e4 or c4 is the better strike in the center.

    Sometimes KID players moving over to the KIA artificially narrow themselves to the ...e5 lines when they reverse colors, and they forget that some of the best KID lines strike back at the center with ...c5 instead.

    In general, I think the KIA and the Reti are kindred openings in much the same way the KID and Benoni tend to overlap.

    My preferred way to play the KIA is with either 1. Nf3 or 1. g3, and each move I evaluate what Black is trying to do. With a white kingside fianchetto, white reserves the option to address the center with e4, c4, or even d4, depending on what black plays.

    In many cases, the advantage of the first move becomes extremely valuable, in that black needs to be prepared for a variety of setups, and there isn't really one that is good against everything.

    In the above example, white made it easy on black by launching a kingside attack in spite of the notable absence of the black king on that wing, but he certainly had more flexible and solid options earlier. A KIA player who plays like this gets what he deserves.
  8. SubscriberPaul Leggett
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    24 May '11 23:521 edit
    Here is a KIA/Pirc Reversed with a little backstory. It's a 25 move win against a USCF 2150 player.

    I was one of the lowest-rated players in the Open Section of the Virginia Open, as my rating had just broken the 1800 level. It was a 4-round swiss, and I managed to win my first two rounds. I was white against a USCF 2150 player the first round, and white against a 2050 player the second round. Both games were KIAs!

    I was tied for the lead halfway through, but I lost to a 2300 rated Master in round 3, and to a 2190 expert in round 4, to end with 50%.

    I got married shortly after that, and that was the end of that!

  9. Standard memberpdunne
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    26 May '11 09:33
    As previous posters have said, it's probably not a good idea to play the KIA against everything. I sometimes like to try 2.Qe2 (Tschigorin's Attack) against the French, and that very often turns into a KIA. I've been quite successful with it OTB. Here's my finest hour.

  10. SubscriberPaul Leggett
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    26 May '11 21:13
    Originally posted by pdunne
    As previous posters have said, it's probably not a good idea to play the KIA against everything. I sometimes like to try 2.Qe2 (Tschigorin's Attack) against the French, and that very often turns into a KIA. I've been quite successful with it OTB. Here's my finest hour.

    [pgn]
    [Event "13. VFB Schach Leipzig Open"]
    [Site "Leipzig"]
    [Date "2006.03.17"] ...[text shortened]... Rg3 52.h7 Rh3+ 53.Kg6 Ke7 54.f6+ Kf8
    55.Kg5 b5 56.Bg6 1-0

    [/pgn]
    Very nice! It's a database addition for me!
  11. e4
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    27 May '11 02:28
    White's play in that pure Kid reversed was awful.

    here. White to play.


    He came up with the wonderful plan (seen in no KID I can recall)
    of 13.Nd2 Ng4 and 14 Nb1 no wonder he got clobbered.



    back here.


    12.Nxe5 Nxe5 13.fxe5 Ng4


    14.Nf4 Nxe4 15.Nd5


    Fairly forced and that's OK. Black is not going to open the g-file using
    the f4 pawn as a lever. The h3 pawn is protecting the King and that Bishop
    on h1 still has a future.
    A nice game with good chances for both sides. (will Black still go for the
    0-0-0 idea) Anyway, much better than what was played.

    N-d2-b1. Where did that come from?
    Someone has been reading too much Nimzovitch. (....and skipping bits.) 😉
  12. Standard memberpdunne
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    27 May '11 05:59
    Originally posted by greenpawn34

    Someone has been reading too much Nimzovitch. (....and skipping bits.) 😉
    It's a good quip, but actually I think reading Nimzowitsch can be very harmful if done before one's ready for him. Get your Dr. Tarrasch down first, then you can worry about Mr. N. Although first of all of course, and Mr. N. himself recommended this , is -- you guessed it -- the ability to combine i.e. tactics.
  13. Standard memberpdunne
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    27 May '11 06:02
    Originally posted by Paul Leggett
    Very nice! It's a database addition for me!
    Damn! There goes the element of surprise! Although you don't strike me as a French player anyway ;-)
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    27 May '11 06:08

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  15. Joined
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    27 May '11 06:13
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    White's play in that pure Kid reversed was awful.

    here. White to play.

    [fen]r1bqk2r/pp2bpp1/2n2n2/2p1p3/3pPP2/3P1NPp/PPP1N2P/R1BQ1RKB w kq - 0 13[/fen]
    He came up with the wonderful plan (seen in no KID I can recall)
    of 13.Nd2 Ng4 and 14 Nb1 no wonder he got clobbered.

    [fen]r1bqk2r/pp2bpp1/2n5/2p1p3/3pPPn1/3P2Pp/PPP1N2P/RNBQ1RKB b kq - 0 14[/f ...[text shortened]... id that come from?
    Someone has been reading too much Nimzovitch. (....and skipping bits.) 😉
    12.Nd2 doesn't seem so bad for example

    12.Nd2 Ng4 13.Bf3 with the plan of trading the bishop off and then planting the knight on c4 but I'm equally perplexed by 13.Nb1/
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