1. Joined
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    30 Dec '10 20:272 edits
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    no, all i am calling for is transparency. Can you explain why they should choose to ignore the principle, why its described as religious crap, why the evasion? If its a fine principle in itself, why not say so? these other instances hardly negate its value, do they?
    “...Can you explain why THEY should choose to ignore the PRINCIPLE, why its described as religious crap ...” (my emphases)

    Firstly, For the record, it was me and ONLY me that said “religious crap” and not the other two.

    And, secondly, no, I was NOT referring to the “PRINCIPLE” of treating females with respect -why would I need scriptures for that? I respect females just fine without the need to reading a load of religious crap for that. What makes the religious scriptures “crap” is the fact that what they say/assume about the 'supernatural' is not based on logic nor evidence. This contrasts with scientific method where every assertion is scrutinised (to see how it could be false) and every attempt is made to rationally back-up the assertions using arguments and reason/logic and mathematical proofs and experiments and evidence .
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    30 Dec '10 23:29
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Robbie, what is your position in JW organization? Are you a 'publisher' or 'witness'? Are you going to be one of the 144,000 who go to heaven? Or are you one of those to live on an improved Earth forever?

    BTW, with millions of world wide members, how did they come up with that 144,000#?

    Why have such a tier society? 144,000= 12X12X1000. Does that bre ...[text shortened]... gnificance? 12 disciples times 12, etc?

    Of that 144,000 what is the percentage of women?
    every witness is a publisher and every witness is a witness, they are one and the same thing. No i dont think that i am heaven bound, i entertain the hope of living on a restored earth. The number 144,000 is a Biblical number, based on the twelve tribes of Israel, we take the point of view that they refer not to natural Israel, but to what the Bible terms spiritual Israel, that is those who have been circumcised in heart. Paul explains it at great length in the book of Romans. The percentage of men to women is not known, but the only person i have ever met who claimed to be one of the 144,000 was an old lady, now deceased.
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    30 Dec '10 23:38
    Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
    “...Can you explain why THEY should choose to ignore the PRINCIPLE, why its described as religious crap ...” (my emphases)

    Firstly, For the record, it was me and ONLY me that said “religious crap” and not the other two.

    And, secondly, no, I was NOT referring to the “PRINCIPLE” of treating females with respect -why would I need scriptures for t ...[text shortened]... i]reason/logic[/i] and mathematical proofs and experiments and evidence .
    yes but you displayed the same kind of attitude, that being a total disregard for spiritual principles found in religious literature. This is clearly prejudicial, bigoted and based on a false premise, that all religious literature claims to be inspired, not the case. Indeed, i tested my premise on you, simply by asking you to comment on a religious principle, and true enough, the barriers were pulled up, the cannons loaded and a siege mentality ensued as was clearly evidenced by your reaction. You see Mr Hamilton, your reaction was more a reflection of you, than it was of the principles under discussion. Indeed to state of the most widely published and translated book in the history of humanity as 'religious crap', really is in want of education.
  4. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
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    31 Dec '10 03:58
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    every witness is a publisher and every witness is a witness, they are one and the same thing. No i dont think that i am heaven bound, i entertain the hope of living on a restored earth. The number 144,000 is a Biblical number, based on the twelve tribes of Israel, we take the point of view that they refer not to natural Israel, but to what the Bibl ...[text shortened]... only person i have ever met who claimed to be one of the 144,000 was an old lady, now deceased.
    Can't you see that is a self limiting thing? As you approach ten million membership, the vast majority are denied your heaven. So you get to 14 million and the ones who go to your heaven amounts to 1 percent. Doesn't that strike you as odd? A hierarchical heaven? That makes about as much sense as a god condemning brown ants because he only likes red ants.

    Why have they changed JW doctrine 148 times since the 1920's? Do you think it's right someone who wants to leave that religion will be shunned? Only one step from Islamic apostasy, where the sentence is death. So you have to follow all the precepts of JW even if the next version changes yet again even if it goes against your grain. Do you really think a god would set things up like that? Why can't you see the whole thing is set up like a snake oil sales routine?

    Using fear to control the flock. Well known and used technique. How can you think a 'just and omniscient god' would set things up that way? Because it wasn't. It was all just words written down by men who set out to make a religion that would pass muster in Rome at the time of the emperors.
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    31 Dec '10 04:351 edit
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Can't you see that is a self limiting thing? As you approach ten million membership, the vast majority are denied your heaven. So you get to 14 million and the ones who go to your heaven amounts to 1 percent. Doesn't that strike you as odd? A hierarchical heaven? That makes about as much sense as a god condemning brown ants because he only likes red ants.
    o set out to make a religion that would pass muster in Rome at the time of the emperors.
    no it doesn't strike me as odd, indeed, i have no desire to live in heaven, i quite like it hear on earth, i can play my guitar, watch movies, go mountain climbing, be with my children, play chess, eat flapjacks, lots of good things, which i couldn't do in heaven. In fact it seems to be to be ultimately self sacrificing to go to heaven thus it never appears to me to be hierarchical, simply different roles in a family, for we remain as one. I mean are you sad that you are not a wife, of course not, you are still part of the same family, you just have slightly different responsibilities.

    Why have we changed doctrine, well we realise that our knowledge was/is partial and as greater understanding comes to light we bring our thinking into harmony with new truths.

    Do i think that its right that if someone wants to leave they should be shunned? i have known not a few persons who have left and are not shunned, i see them on the street, i speak to them. If they have been removed for wrong doing then that is a different matter, it is always sad when that happens, but the congregation must be kept clean, they bring it on themselves by their own actions. No one is ever removed for the wrongdoing, they are removed because of their attitude, in that they are unrepentant.

    Sorry no i dont see it the way you do, we have literally helped millions of people become part of a huge worldwide family of brothers and sisters, who have been helped to overcome all manner of adversity, from drug abuse to prostitution! Take me and Galveston, i have never personally met him, but i can guarantee that when i do, i can leave him with my car keys, my house keys, my wallet because he is like a brother to me. Its truly amazing and i feel really sad (not in a condescending sense) for people that will never experience that type of belonging.
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