1. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    22 Dec '07 04:112 edits
    [Nirvana] is a word used by the Buddha to describe the perfect peace of the mind that is free from craving, anger and other afflictive states (kilesa). This peace, which is in reality the fundamental nature of the mind, is revealed when the root causes of the afflictive states are dissolved. The causes themselves (see sankhara) lie deep within the mind (that part of the mind that Western psychology calls the unconscious)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana[/i]


    This sounds remarkably like the Scientologist ideas of engrams (equivalent to kilesa above) and clear (the peace which is the "fundamental nature of the mind"😉.

    Comments?

    Oh, right, we are 60% Christians, 35% Atheist, and 5% Muslim. Nobody cares.

    😞
  2. Joined
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    22 Dec '07 04:41
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    [Nirvana] is a word used by the Buddha to describe the perfect peace of the mind that is free from craving, anger and other afflictive states (kilesa). This peace, which is in reality the fundamental nature of the mind, is revealed when the root causes of the afflictive states are dissolved. The causes themselves (see sankhara) lie deep within the min ...[text shortened]... omments?

    Oh, right, we are 60% Christians, 35% Atheist, and 5% Muslim. Nobody cares.

    😞
    I'm assuming you're in the 35%?
  3. Hmmm . . .
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    22 Dec '07 04:45
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    [Nirvana] is a word used by the Buddha to describe the perfect peace of the mind that is free from craving, anger and other afflictive states (kilesa). This peace, which is in reality the fundamental nature of the mind, is revealed when the root causes of the afflictive states are dissolved. The causes themselves (see sankhara) lie deep within the min ...[text shortened]... omments?

    Oh, right, we are 60% Christians, 35% Atheist, and 5% Muslim. Nobody cares.

    😞
    As a perhaps heretical Zen Buddhist—

    I don’t indulge much in Buddhist metaphysics. For me clear-mind is simply a state of awareness before the overlay of thoughts/concepts. It is the experience of tathata—the just-so-suchness of this moment, in which and of which I also inseparably am. But there is also no thought “I” which would introduce the sense of separateness.

    In that way of awareness, there are no disturbing thoughts to cause what the Buddha called dukkha: anguish/suffering.

    I don’t use the word “Nirvana” (though I do use the word kensho). I’m not sure, based on my limited reading, that that is what Scientologists mean by “clear.”

    I don’t know much about the unconscious, but would suggest that whatever content the unconscious holds only causes anguish if (a) one becomes conscious of it, or (b) if it leads to unhealthy or destructive emotions or behavior, which one ought to be conscious of. One practice of Zen is simply to watch and notice how thoughts arise in the mind, how they become associated with other arising thought s and feelings, how they pass away. Another is simply to be mindful of what you’re doing, and of your intention.

    What I’ve read about engrams and such led me to think that Scientology is at least as complicated in its approach as, say, psycho-analysis. I’m not saying that means it is necessarily unhelpful as a therapy; but Zen aims at a quicker way.

    As for the rest of Scientology: I see no reason to indulge in their metaphysics either.
  4. Standard memberDavid C
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    22 Dec '07 04:52
    This sounds remarkably like the Scientologist ideas of engrams (equivalent to kilesa above) and clear (the peace which is the "fundamental nature of the mind"😉.
    ...with healthy doses of Gurdjieff, Eliphas Levi, Aleister Crowley and barbiturate-addled, third-rate sci-fi drivel to boot. Is there even a shred of doubt left that Scientology is as much of a swindle as Mormonism or Benny Hinn?
  5. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    22 Dec '07 05:03
    Originally posted by David C
    Is there even a shred of doubt left that Scientology is as much of a swindle as Mormonism or Benny Hinn?
    No
  6. Standard membershavixmir
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    22 Dec '07 08:32
    Originally posted by David C
    ...with healthy doses of Gurdjieff, Eliphas Levi, Aleister Crowley and barbiturate-addled, third-rate sci-fi drivel to boot. Is there even a shred of doubt left that Scientology is as much of a swindle as Mormonism or Benny Hinn?
    Ultimately all religion is a swindle.
    If you can't reach a state of mind by substance abuse, it ain't worth reachin' at all!
  7. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    22 Dec '07 11:18
    Originally posted by chappy1
    I'm assuming you're in the 35%?
    Yep.
  8. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    22 Dec '07 11:19
    Originally posted by David C
    ...with healthy doses of Gurdjieff, Eliphas Levi, Aleister Crowley and barbiturate-addled, third-rate sci-fi drivel to boot. Is there even a shred of doubt left that Scientology is as much of a swindle as Mormonism or Benny Hinn?
    Or Catholicism or Protestantism or Islam or ...
  9. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    22 Dec '07 11:21
    Originally posted by vistesd
    As a perhaps heretical Zen Buddhist—

    I don’t indulge much in Buddhist metaphysics. For me clear-mind is simply a state of awareness before the overlay of thoughts/concepts. It is the experience of tathata—the just-so-suchness of this moment, in which and of which I also inseparably am. But there is also no thought “I” which would introduc ...[text shortened]... way.

    As for the rest of Scientology: I see no reason to indulge in their metaphysics either.
    In Scientology, engrams cause unhealthy and destructive behavior and often mask themselves from the user, leading to denial, from what I understand.
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    22 Dec '07 14:17
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    [Nirvana] is a word used by the Buddha to describe the perfect peace of the mind that is free from craving, anger and other afflictive states (kilesa). This peace, which is in reality the fundamental nature of the mind, is revealed when the root causes of the afflictive states are dissolved. The causes themselves (see sankhara) lie deep within the min ...[text shortened]... omments?

    Oh, right, we are 60% Christians, 35% Atheist, and 5% Muslim. Nobody cares.

    😞
    I wonder, did the Buddha charge $$$ for taking his classes? 😛

    Anyhew, I say we all reach Nirvana at some point. I mean, we all reach a place when we are at perfect peace of mind without any type of craving or anger etc. Its called being DEAD! LOL.
  11. Subscriberno1marauder
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    22 Dec '07 16:25
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    [Nirvana] is a word used by the Buddha to describe the perfect peace of the mind that is free from craving, anger and other afflictive states (kilesa). This peace, which is in reality the fundamental nature of the mind, is revealed when the root causes of the afflictive states are dissolved. The causes themselves (see sankhara) lie deep within the min ...[text shortened]... omments?

    Oh, right, we are 60% Christians, 35% Atheist, and 5% Muslim. Nobody cares.

    😞
    According to this Scientiology site, http://www.authenticscientology.org/page04.htm, engrams are recordings of past events and all the perceptions that occurred during these events. That doesn't sound anything like the concept of kilesa to me.
  12. Subscriberno1marauder
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    22 Dec '07 16:28
    Originally posted by whodey
    I wonder, did the Buddha charge $$$ for taking his classes? 😛

    Anyhew, I say we all reach Nirvana at some point. I mean, we all reach a place when we are at perfect peace of mind without any type of craving or anger etc. Its called being DEAD! LOL.
    Did Christ charge a fee to his disciples? Being ignorant and contemptous of other philosophical systems seems to bring you great joy.

    Death doesn't bring such a state in Buddhism since you will be reborn until you reach Nirvana.
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    22 Dec '07 19:081 edit
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Did Christ charge a fee to his disciples? Being ignorant and contemptous of other philosophical systems seems to bring you great joy.

    Death doesn't bring such a state in Buddhism since you will be reborn until you reach Nirvana.
    I do not recall Christ ever charging for admission or for a healing or for sharing his wisdom etc. In fact, the apostles once ran across someone who offered them money to show him how to heal etc. They, however, rebuked him and said he had a wicked heart.
  14. Subscriberno1marauder
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    26 Dec '07 15:35
    Originally posted by whodey
    I do not recall Christ ever charging for admission or for a healing or for sharing his wisdom etc. In fact, the apostles once ran across someone who offered them money to show him how to heal etc. They, however, rebuked him and said he had a wicked heart.
    UM, that was a rhetorical question.
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    26 Dec '07 18:301 edit
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    UM, that was a rhetorical question.
    And mine was a rhetorical answer.

    And yes I am contemptuous of any religion or belief system that requires people to pay $$$ for help in healing/salvation etc etc. It runs counter to everything within the Bible!!
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