1. Donationrwingett
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    23 Aug '10 15:001 edit
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    I like this interpretation a lot, although (as you indicate later) i think it more logical that Able was a nomadic herdsman rather than a hunter-gatherer.

    The writers of Genesis were therefore looking backwards to better-times (much as the Press do now - "The Good Old days"😉 and blaming the ills on the world on the new-fangled innovation of agriculture.
    It antiquity history was commonly perceived to have gone through several 'ages', each of which was worse than the preceding one. First came the 'Golden Age', when, as Hesiod claims:

    Men lived like gods without sorrow of heart, remote and free from toil and grief: miserable age rested not on them; but with legs and arms never failing they made merry with feasting beyond the reach of all devils. When they died, it was as though they were overcome with sleep, and they had all good things; for the fruitful earth unforced bare them fruit abundantly and without stint. They dwelt in ease and peace upon their lands with many good things, rich in flocks and loved by the blessed gods.


    The Golden Age ended when Prometheus brought the gift of fire and all the other arts to mankind, who subsequently lost his idyllic state. The courser Silver, Bronze and Iron ages followed in suit. In his book The Pursuit of the Millennium (p.187), Norman Cohn is talking about Ovid's version of the myth from the Metamophoses:

    'Men used to cultivate good faith and virtue spontaneously, without laws. Punishment and fear did not exist, nor were threatening phrases to be read from bronze tablets....Earth herself, untroubled and untouched by the hoe, unwounded by any ploughshare, used to give all things of her own accord...' But the day was to come when 'shame and truth and good faith fled away; and in their place came deceit and guilt and plots and violence and the wicked lust for possession....And the wary surveyor marked out with long boundary-lines the earth which hitherto had been a common possession like the sunshine and the breezes....Now pernicious iron was produced, and gold that is still more pernicious than iron; and these produced war....Men live from plunder..."


    I think the entire Christian notion of The Fall owes a large debt to this Greco-Roman version of the fall from this idyllic past. Versions of this myth persisted long into the Middle Ages, with many reformist groups trying to undo the corruption of the Roman Church and reconnect with the long lost Golden Age. Whether Rousseau was aware of it or not, it bears a striking similarity to his conception of events in his Discourse on Inequality.

    Edit: Here's a painting of the Golden Age by Lucas Chranach the Elder (1472-1553):
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Goldenes-Zeitalter-1530-2.jpg
  2. Donationrwingett
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    23 Aug '10 15:06
    Originally posted by galveston75
    So you believe this one guys opinion on who or what he thinks Cain and Able were or were not? And if they weren't real as the Bible says they were, then at what point do you believe that anyone in the Bible was actually a real live person that history other then the Bible says were real? Abraham, Moses, Pharaoh, David, Jesus, Pilate, Paul, etc, etc?
    Rousseau never mentions Cain or Abel in his Discourse on Inequality. The application of that work to the story of Cain and Abel is my own idea.

    I do not presume to know who was a real person or who was metaphorical person throughout the bible. My observances here are restricted solely to Genesis 4 and the story of Cain and Abel. As a general rule, though, I think it would be a good practice to treat historically distant people and events as being more metaphorical, while those closer to the writer's time could be treated more factually.
  3. Donationrwingett
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    23 Aug '10 15:08
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    I like it rwingett. You are wise in your interpretation, and in that wisdom comes practicality and purpose.
    Although your interpretation is simplistic, its as good as any for the amount of actual truthful info we have about these matters.

    G-75, the bible cant all be taken literally, if you want a better understanding of what really happened, you'll ...[text shortened]... ou, but seeing as you dont even respond to my questions, it may be a crucial and necessary one!
    Simplistic? I'm not sure how you come by that analysis.
  4. Donationrwingett
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    23 Aug '10 15:11
    Originally posted by duecer
    interesting, but really quite a stretch. If we more closely examine the text, it is apparent that that God's favoring of Abel has less to do with the way one provides a living for self and family, and more to do with how one Thanks the creator for the gift of nature and how it is able to provide.

    NIV: In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits ...[text shortened]... sin, allowing it to become his master, and brings his brother into a field to hide his crime.
    Like any good piece of literature, I'm sure the story can be read on several levels. It may open itself up to several very different interpretations. Your attempt to force it into only one standard interpretation smacks of dogmatism.
  5. Standard memberduecer
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    23 Aug '10 15:16
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Like any good piece of literature, I'm sure the story can be read on several levels. It may open itself up to several very different interpretations. Your attempt to force it into only one standard interpretation smacks of dogmatism.
    hmmmmm....I've considered your point and have found your opinion on the matter vacuous and feeble. As Frued said...sometimes a cigar is just a cigar
  6. Donationrwingett
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    23 Aug '10 15:19
    Originally posted by duecer
    hmmmmm....I've considered your point and have found your opinion on the matter vacuous and feeble. As Frued said...sometimes a cigar is just a cigar
    Fine. I guess there's no need for you to participate in this thread any longer then.
  7. Standard memberduecer
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    23 Aug '10 15:29
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Fine. I guess there's no need for you to participate in this thread any longer then.
    nope, especially since you have no clue what you're talking about
  8. Standard membergalveston75
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    23 Aug '10 15:41
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Rousseau never mentions Cain or Abel in his Discourse on Inequality. The application of that work to the story of Cain and Abel is my own idea.

    I do not presume to know who was a real person or who was metaphorical person throughout the bible. My observances here are restricted solely to Genesis 4 and the story of Cain and Abel. As a general rule ...[text shortened]... ing more metaphorical, while those closer to the writer's time could be treated more factually.
    "The story is metaphorical. Cain and Abel weren't actual people."

    Oh..I guess I misunderstood this part.

    And at what part of the Bible do we start to take that some were real and some were not?
  9. Standard membergalveston75
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    23 Aug '10 15:49
    Originally posted by duecer
    hmmmmm....I've considered your point and have found your opinion on the matter vacuous and feeble. As Frued said...sometimes a cigar is just a cigar
    "Would you just get to the point and tells us as we're all waiting wether this is a real cigar or one that rwingett's imagination or not? Come on now!!!!!!!!!!"

    Is that echos of rajj I hear? Where is that lovely person today? Lol.
  10. Standard memberavalanchethecat
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    23 Aug '10 15:51
    Originally posted by galveston75
    "The story is metaphorical. Cain and Abel weren't actual people."

    Oh..I guess I misunderstood this part.

    And at what part of the Bible do we start to take that some were real and some were not?
    You should never believe anything you only read from a single source.
  11. Donationrwingett
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    23 Aug '10 16:18
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    I like it rwingett. You are wise in your interpretation, and in that wisdom comes practicality and purpose.
    Although your interpretation is simplistic, its as good as any for the amount of actual truthful info we have about these matters.

    G-75, the bible cant all be taken literally, if you want a better understanding of what really happened, you'll ...[text shortened]... ou, but seeing as you dont even respond to my questions, it may be a crucial and necessary one!
    We can take this interpretation and look at it from a Buddhist viewpoint* in which suffering is caused by craving. Civilization, as embodied by Cain and his murder of Abel, has increased our perceived needs exponentially. We work longer hours and subject ourselves to all manner of ills in order to fulfill needs which we simply did not have in our pre-civilized state. The more "advanced" we become, the more needs we end up creating. All of civilization has resulted in a multiplication of needs and cravings which can never be fulfilled. Hence we suffer.

    The path to enlightenment is through the renunciation of these cravings and the paring down of ones perceived needs into the simpler life of Abel. Only then can we transcend the 'violence and vanity of Cain' and find enlightenment.

    *My knowledge of Buddhism is elementary at best.

    I find it interesting that several rather fanciful authors have theorized that Jesus traveled to Tibet prior to his ministry (some say after) and absorbed many Buddhist teachings. There is a striking similarity between Christianity and Buddhism on many levels. Whether Buddhism influenced Christianity through Jesus or through some other method is an intriguing topic.
  12. Standard membergalveston75
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    23 Aug '10 16:23
    Originally posted by avalanchethecat
    You should never believe anything you only read from a single source.
    I maybe agree with you to a point but the Bible I believe entirely. God has not seen the need to change it at all so I'm fine with it.
  13. Standard memberavalanchethecat
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    23 Aug '10 16:29
    Originally posted by galveston75
    I maybe agree with you to a point but the Bible I believe entirely. God has not seen the need to change it at all so I'm fine with it.
    Actually god has been messing with it ever since the first words were committed to paper. Edits, translations, books ejected, books included - the thing's a palimpsest. Besides, god gave you a brain and the sense to work out the right thing to do in any given situation. If he wanted you to believe what some other guy told you, he would've made you a sucker.
  14. Donationrwingett
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    23 Aug '10 16:32
    Originally posted by avalanchethecat
    Actually god has been messing with it ever since the first words were committed to paper. Edits, translations, books ejected, books included - the thing's a palimpsest. Besides, god gave you a brain and the sense to work out the right thing to do in any given situation. If he wanted you to believe what some other guy told you, he would've made you a sucker.
    Palimpsest? You get ten points for that one.
  15. Standard memberavalanchethecat
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    23 Aug '10 16:36
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Palimpsest? You get ten points for that one.
    Cheers. Obviously I meant it metaphorically, btw.
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