Originally posted by JS357 Some atheists may take the stance that their belief that no deity exists, is a default position that requires no justification. I would say fine for them, but if they want me to believe it needs no justification, they have the burden of proof. Maybe they can do it, maybe not. And they certainly don't owe me a proof.
I hope you're not referring to my argument here, because that's not what I've been saying at all. At no time do I ever say that no deity exists. That, clearly, is not a default position for anyone.
Originally posted by JS357 Some atheists may take the stance that their belief that no deity exists, is a default position that requires no justification. I would say fine for them, but if they want me to believe it needs no justification, they have the burden of proof. Maybe they can do it, maybe not. And they certainly don't owe me a proof.
But I don't think the statement "God may ...[text shortened]... is fact (if it is a fact) does not require me to agree that the Christian God is possible.
But I don't think the statement "God may or may not exist" is as automatically acceptable as it seems. If it is equivalent to the statement "It is possible that God exists" then I would ask for the justification, if any, of the statement that it is possible. Some agnostics seem to miss this point.
Yeah its not very elegant in so far as it is not exactly what I am trying to express. I prefer to say that the fact of gods existence or non existence is unknowable. However it is interesting to me that if i opt for "God may or may not exist" I am challenged by the atheists; whereas if i opt for "the fact of gods existence or non existence is unknowable" I get set upon by theists. I only ever claim this position as a belief/cerebral instinct, obviously I cannot claim anything as an ultimate truth. However I cannot get away from the idea that atheist have become as bogged down in the worlds various religious texts as their adherents.
Originally posted by kevcvs57 But I don't think the statement "God may or may not exist" is as automatically acceptable as it seems. If it is equivalent to the statement "It is possible that God exists" then I would ask for the justification, if any, of the statement that it is possible. Some agnostics seem to miss this point.
Yeah its not very elegant in so far as it is not exactly ...[text shortened]... st have become as bogged down in the worlds various religious texts as their adherents.
I have no problem whatsoever with you saying that "god may or may not exist." But I object strenuously to you trying to characterize all atheists as 'hard atheists' who allegedly claim knowledge of god's non-existence. I also object to the mischaracterization of agnosticism as somehow being a reasonable midway point between theism and atheism.
Originally posted by kevcvs57 No it just proves your being obtuse because Its not as simple as tearing down the straw man that is the bible, your simply wrong. I still see no evidence for your position. Perhaps you should just shut your eyes and maybe the agnostic position will go away; but dont hold your breath.
you haven't understood my position, ergo you're in no position to comment on it.
Originally posted by rwingett I have no problem whatsoever with you saying that "god may or may not exist." But I object strenuously to you trying to characterize all atheists as 'hard atheists' who allegedly claim knowledge of god's non-existence. I also object to the mischaracterization of agnosticism as somehow being a reasonable midway point between theism and atheism.
I am not characterizing anybody in particular as anything, I am pretty sure that i have never used the phrase hard atheists I've seen it used somewhere but it was not I. The problem I have with the term Atheist hard, soft, or whatever is that; and correct me if I am wrong (like you would need to be invited) it bears the same relationship to theist as 'atypical' does to 'typical' sort of opposite but more the negative of. I also do not characterize agnosticism "as somehow being a reasonable midway point between theism and atheism" Who would want to live there. What I will not accept, is the idea that by calling myself an agnostic I have to be the bastard child of one of them.
agnosticism is a subcategory of atheism in the same way monotheism is a subcategory of theism. some monotheists and agnostics seem to have a difficulty in recognizing the respective categories in which they reside.
Originally posted by VoidSpirit agnosticism is a subcategory of atheism in the same way monotheism is a subcategory of theism. some monotheists and agnostics seem to have a difficulty in recognizing the respective categories in which they reside.
Utter tosh, an atheist is a delusional agnostic, your turn.
Originally posted by kevcvs57 Utter tosh, an atheist is a delusional agnostic, your turn.
I once tried to argue your position, being rather agnostically minded, but I didn't get very far. As far as I was able to figure, technically, I think we're all either theist or a-theist. You can also be an agnostic atheist or an agnostic theist.
Originally posted by avalanchethecat I once tried to argue your position, being rather agnostically minded, but I didn't get very far. As far as I was able to figure, technically, I think we're all either theist or a-theist. You can also be an agnostic atheist or an agnostic theist.
Yeah its a pain constantly having to defend your chosen identity but I have been an agnostic for about 30yrs now and I know what the definition means to me and I shall never be a soft/agnostic/theist. I think the problem for me is that atheism is limited to the rebuttal of a theists description of god or the afterlife i.e science versus scripture. but ultimately it does not matter what somebody else labels me because I wont be listening unless I can learn something new from them. but I could be wrong.
Originally posted by avalanchethecat I once tried to argue your position, being rather agnostically minded, but I didn't get very far. As far as I was able to figure, technically, I think we're all either theist or a-theist. You can also be an agnostic atheist or an agnostic theist.
Yes! After tackling this topic annually for ten years it looks like I'm finally making progress.
Christian to atheist?
21 Feb '12 02:05
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