Double truth...

Originally posted by jaywill
Okay, Let's start over again with a little humility on my part.

Sorry for a proud attitude. I really could learn something from you. I mean I regard your life experience and education as probably valuable.

Sorry.

Now, about this Christians killing people thing ...

Should I not be a disciple of Jesus because I might lose control of myself a ...[text shortened]... their own evil plans.

So why should I blame Jesus for that ? He warned us, didn't He ?

The religions that sprung from the early city-states were designed to separate people and enforce social norms. In order to be able to generate a surplus so that people could pursue something other than bare subsistence it was necessary for everyone to know their place and perform the appropriate tasks. That is why these beliefs all split people into the elect and the damned. The elect know their place and the damned are the troublemakers who fail to follow the rules. Too many troublemakers and the city will collapse. That is why your god is not happy if even one sinner darkens his town. Unfortunately that attitude is just not compatible with a free society. As long as you perceive those who disagree with your feelings to be a threat you will misinterpret their actions and demonize their intentions. You are expecting to see these troublemakers, these demons, because people from another age warned you about them. But in this age the warning may mean to not to look outward but to look inward and notice the demons dancing there.

Originally posted by TerrierJack
The religions that sprung from the early city-states were designed to separate people and enforce social norms. In order to be able to generate a surplus so that people could pursue something other than bare subsistence it was necessary for everyone to know their place and perform the appropriate tasks. That is why these beliefs all split people into t ...[text shortened]... warning may mean to not to look outward but to look inward and notice the demons dancing there.

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The religions that sprung from the early city-states were designed to separate people and enforce social norms.
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The basic teaching of the Christian Gospel is oneness in Christ, ie. "one new man" where there cannot Jew, Greek, Barbarian, slave, free man. So your assumption that the Gospel is desiged to divide people is flawed.

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In order to be able to generate a surplus so that people could pursue something other than bare subsistence it was necessary for everyone to know their place and perform the appropriate tasks.
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I don't yet see how you have answered my question. Your socialogical analysis here really has nothing to do with the the Gospel of Christ.

And I don't see how the fact that people killed under the banner of Christ can be blamed on Christ or the Gospel. And I don't see that I should not believe in and follow Jesus because of the Crusades or the Spanish Inquisition.

Also, I think if you are a little more objective about history you would have to admit that many lives have been saved, many stomachs have been fed, many sick have been healed, many homeless have been sheltered, many naked have been clothed, and other great humanitarian works, have been done under the banner of the Christian faith.

Being historically objective does not allow me to see only "murders for Jesus" as you implied was the central characterisic of Christians.

I wonder how many killings have been stopped because of the Christian Gospel. I wonder how many wars were not fought because someone somewhere was enfluenced by the teaching of Jesus.

Skeptics rarely refer to statistics on these positive things.

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That is why these beliefs all split people into the elect and the damned. The elect know their place and the damned are the troublemakers who fail to follow the rules.
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The New Testament portrays people deciding themselves where they want to stand in relation to Christ's salvific work. No one has been given the authority to assign anyone his or her place. If you object that the Pope did just that, I would counter that such a perversion of the teaching of the New Testament gave rise to the Protestant Reformation to draw back from such non-scriptural abuses.

It is not any people on earth who are given authority to assign whether they are saved or lost. That decision is upon the person who chooses one reaction or the other to the message of salvation through Christ.

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Too many troublemakers and the city will collapse. That is why your god is not happy if even one sinner darkens his town.
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The God I read about is happy when one sinner comes to repentence first of all. The Prodigal Son teaching in Luke 16 shows the Father's eagerness to welcome the lost son back into the family.

If by "his town" you mean the New Jerusalem in the end of the Bible, it is logical that a Paradise consist of people who have been all transformed to the image of Christ to be like Him. That God is working towards that goal of not only forgiving sinners, but also transforming and sanctifying them is logical.

He and we are incompatible as we are. And He does not change. So He must change us if we are to be with Him for eternity. Such a change is a process. He takes all the time He needs to do it. It is not instantaneous. And it is logical that a Perfect World be perfectily free from evil.

So I rather choose to cooperate with His plan rather than murmer about it. It is alright with me if ultimately God works a full righteous character into me. That's what I want.


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Unfortunately that attitude is just not compatible with a free society.
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Well, Jesus said that "He who commits sin is a slave of sin." So I don't think a society of those slaves to sin is really a free one at all.

So rather than murmerings and conspiracy theories I choose to cooperate with His plan of salvation.

Still you have not answered the question. Should I not be a follower of Jesus just because there has been some religious hypocrisy in history?

How about I ask God to lead me to people who will help my faith rather than lead me to people who will hurt my faith? I am not looking for poor examples of disciples. I am looking for exemplary examples of disciples.

I do the same with practically every other realm of interest. I look for those who are successful I don't hunt for those who are failures.

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As long as you perceive those who disagree with your feelings to be a threat you will misinterpret their actions and demonize their intentions.
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You can disagree with my feelings. I love the Lord Jesus. It is okay if you disagree with my loving Jesus.

I think that God will be the final Judge concerning all of our motives and intentions. He is the only one really qualified to do so. By the same token He is the only one fully qualified to forgive us. Our knowledge is incomplete. His is full.

So I say with Abraham "Shall the judge of all the earth not do justly?" (Gen. 18:25)

It is God who "... in the day when God judges the secrets of men according to my gospel through Jesus Christ." (Rom. 2:16)

The secret motives and intentions of the hearts are laid bare to God concerning all of us. It is not that important what you think of me or I of you. It is important what God thinks. So we continue to share the good news that forgiveness of sins is in trusting in Christ who died for us.

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You are expecting to see these troublemakers, these demons, because people from another age warned you about them. But in this age the warning may mean to not to look outward but to look inward and notice the demons dancing there.
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Do you mean something like check the log that is in your own eye before you try to remove the speck in another one's eye?

Yes we were told that we have to consider ourselves to be free from the demonic.

Serving the Lord Jesus and spreading His good word is one way to drive the evil spirits from us.

"The basic teaching of the Christian Gospel is oneness in Christ"

Exactly, conforming to a norm. Take heart, you are a member of my group because I have no tests. We are all already one.


"I don't yet see how you have answered my question. Your socialogical analysis here really has nothing to do with the the Gospel of Christ."

Are people responsible for what they do? If they are responsible, are their actions the result of interaction with the environment or do they just act randomly? I look around and within to understand people. It is amazing how accurate this method is and how it is capable of reducing the likelihood of future injurious behavior.


"Skeptics rarely refer to statistics on these positive things."

Are you serious? Christians should be praised for the genocides they decided not to perpetrate?


"The New Testament portrays people deciding themselves where they want to stand in relation to Christ's salvific work. No one has been given the authority to assign anyone his or her place."

So do you make a distinction among people in terms of their belief? If not, why do you prostelyze? If so, you are usurping your authority. That is pure doublespeak and if you will actually think about it for a moment you should be able to discern that. (I won't buy that particular bridge [even though I know you'll continue to sell it] because your behavior has already set fire to it.)


"the Father's eagerness to welcome the lost son back into the family."

Who's lost? Everyone is in my family. I will not disown a single human. Even the worst behavoir (or the best) does not make you another species.


"If by "his town" you mean the New Jerusalem in the end of the Bible,"

No, I had in mind an actual town, where torture took place and children were mercilessly killed all because their parents professed a different belief.


"He must change us if we are to be with Him for eternity."

Then why don't you trust "him" to do this? Why do you feel compelled to help along this process? It is exactly that attitude that constitutes your hubris. That attitude is what puts you on the same road as every other zealot that kills for his god. Think! You are telling me that you know better than I. Not only do you know better, you also claim to have the restraint to prevent yourself from overreaching with your pride and usurping the function of judging the poor souls you condemn (as those who don't know better, those troublemakers, those others who are less than human because you perceive that they are cut off from divine wisdom, those demons who are my brothers.)


"He who commits sin is a slave of sin. So I don't think a society of those slaves to sin is really a free one at all."

But, no, you are not judging those of us who reject your teachings. You are not condemning everyone in the world who does not agree with you. After all, you have no responsibility for those words that you wrote. You are not capable of being responsible - you are just following orders. Those people who disagree with you are just sinners anyway - who will miss them when you turn the knob to release the gas?



Quite frankly, you scare me. You lack the kernel of doubt that makes most of us pause before we act. If there is a spark of divinity in the human it is that small space where we recognize that we really just don't know. Without that you actually can't have real faith because faith needs a counterweight.

I don't really care how you feel the universe to be. I don't want the responsibility for it. I can live with you loving Jesus or Sparkle Pony or big fish. When you become so convinced that you are correct that you decide that everyone must feel that same way then you no longer see us as your equal and that is what paves the way for inhumanity. That attitude is explained by the "socialogical analysis" that I sent earlier, but tho it may explain it, nothing can justify it any longer.

Originally posted by TerrierJack
"The basic teaching of the Christian Gospel is oneness in Christ"

Exactly, conforming to a norm. Take heart, you are a member of my group because I have no tests. We are all already one.


"I don't yet see how you have answered my question. Your socialogical analysis here really has nothing to do with the the Gospel of Christ."

Are people respo ...[text shortened]... but tho it may explain it, nothing can justify it any longer.

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The basic teaching of the Christian Gospel is oneness in Christ"

Exactly, conforming to a norm. Take heart, you are a member of my group because I have no tests. We are all already one.
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The oneness in Christ is not based upon something man has as a "normal" elemet in himself. This divine life must be imparted into the believers. That is why it speaks of "born again". We were not born with this divine life. We need to be regenerated with this life. In this new life of the resurrected Christ we may have the oneness and unity.

This is different from "conforming to the norm" in the sense of trying to be united in what we have naturally by birth.

www.regenerated.net


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"I don't yet see how you have answered my question. Your socialogical analysis here really has nothing to do with the the Gospel of Christ."

Are people responsible for what they do?
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Obviously, or I would not be exhorted to repent for my sins. Obviously or I would not be taught to walk according to the Holy Spirit, after having been forgiven.

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If they are responsible, are their actions the result of interaction with the environment or do they just act randomly?
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Even a superfiscial reading of the New Testament would disclose that the believers are not being taught to "just act randomly". Would you think that the 27 books of the New Testament just boil down to teaching everyone to "just act randomly"?

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I look around and within to understand people. It is amazing how accurate this method is and how it is capable of reducing the likelihood of future injurious behavior.
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I think I hear you saying that you have found some profit to acting according to your conscience. I would agree that if people would act according to thier God created human conscience society would be much better.

Well, some do act this way as far as is possible. But the thing is that the power of sin in man causes him too often not to be ABLE to act as man knows he should act. "He who commits sin is a slave of sin."

So the Savior Jesus is needed not only to deal with the offense of sins but even more to deal with its power - to free us through His indwelling grace.

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"Skeptics rarely refer to statistics on these positive things."

Are you serious? Christians should be praised for the genocides they decided not to perpetrate?
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You mean Christ should be praised for that? Go ahead , by all means praise Christ the Son of God for that.

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So do you make a distinction among people in terms of their belief? If not, why do you prostelyze?
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I am not sure I follow your reasoning here. But I am not looking for proselytes (spelling?).

But our Lord Jesus did say "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Go therefore and disciple all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all the days until the consummation of the age." (Matt. 28:18-20)

So I believe that all authority in the univese is given to this man the resurrected Jesus. I believe He is with the disciples all the days even until the close of this age. And I believe we are to preach the Gospel and put people into the Triune God.

And I believe we should teach all the nations to observe what He has taught us. I do not believe we are obligated to teach the nations what He did not teach His disciples.

Since I believe I will one day have to stand before Christ and give an accounting of my Christian life, it is a joyful but responsible task. It seems that not everything done "in the name of Jesus" will be approved by Jesus on the day of judgment:

"So then, by their fruits you will recognize them. Not every one who saus to Me, Lord Lord, will enter into the kingdom the heavens, but he who does the will of My Father who is in the heavens.

Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, was it not in Your name that we prophesied, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name did many works of power?

And then I will declare to them: I never knew you. Depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness." (Matt. 7:20-23)

So with patience, soberness, discernment, and prayer I am in the process of learning what is the service which is acceptable and approved by my Lord Jesus Christ. I want to be like Paul who preached as the Gospel "the unsearchable riches of Christ".

What are you living for TerrierJack ?
Why are you here in this world ?

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If so, you are usurping your authority.
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I don't know what on earth kind of "logical trap" you think you have set up for me. You'll have to elaborate. I don't follow you.

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That is pure doublespeak and if you will actually think about it for a moment you should be able to discern that.
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I don't know where this "doublespeak" is suppose to be TerrierJack. Let me see:

I said we are responsible for our actions. I said we have a problem with the guilt and power of sin. I said it is good to live as well as possible according to the good God given conscience. I said nonetheless we have sinned and need forgiveness. I said that Christ forgives and and indwells the repentent to impart the grace of God to them, by which they may be empowered to live righteously. And I said Christ has commissioned His disciples to go to all the world and disciple all the nations plunging them into the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Where's the "doublespeak" ?

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(I won't buy that particular bridge [even though I know you'll continue to sell it] because your behavior has already set fire to it.)
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I am not "selling" anything. I speak of the gift of life in Christ. You do not have to receive it. You do not have to listen.

I am explaining the reasons for me being a disciple of Jesus. I thought roughly you are examining that. So these are my reasons. You are free to reject the salvation for yourself. God will not usurp your human will. God will not coerce anyone. He will not permit me to get away with coercing anyone.

So what is the problem and where is all this "doublespeak" you are supposed to have trapped me into? I think you may be crowing intellectual victory rather pre-maturely.

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"the Father's eagerness to welcome the lost son back into the family."

Who's lost? Everyone is in my family. I will not disown a single human. Even the worst behavoir (or the best) does not make you another species.
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Who is lost? Well it is similar to the crew of people on the Titanic. In a sense they needed to be warned because the ship was going down. They would be "lost" if they did not heed to the warning. (The analogy is not intended to be perfect in every regard).

The world system is like the Titanic. We are going down into a judgment with the God of this universe. If we are not saved through the redemption in Jesus Christ, we will indeed be lost.

So you should pray concerning this to the Lord Jesus. And I think you should pray for your family. I plan to do so as I would for my own family.

The prodigal son looked up one day, saw where he was, and realized that he was lost. Then he returned to the father's house and was welcomed by the longing father with great love and rejoicing.

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"If by "his town" you mean the New Jerusalem in the end of the Bible,"

No, I had in mind an actual town, where torture took place and children were mercilessly killed all because their parents professed a different belief.
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I don't know what incident you speak of. You can explain more. But the passage I refered to did not say go into all the nations and torture children.

So if this was done under the banner of Jesus, I have no doubt that these are ones to whom the Lord will reply "I never knew you. Depart from Me you workers of lawlessness."

My prayer has always been that God would lead me to Christians who are outstandingly encouraging examples of the faith. I did not ask God to lead me to those cause the name of God to be blasphemed because of their evil deeds.

Most of all I never used excuses like bad religious behavior as a rational to continue to enjoy and guard my life in sin.

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"He must change us if we are to be with Him for eternity."

Then why don't you trust "him" to do this?
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I do. Do you mean why don't I do so passively?
I don't understand you.

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Why do you feel compelled to help along this process?
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For it is God who operates in me both the willing and the working for His good pleasure. He operates and I cooperate. It is a mutual cooperation. It is not coercion. Neither is it a passivity.

He operates in me and I cooperate with His inner working.

[b]==================================
It is exactly that attitude that constitutes your hubris.
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It is exactly that attitude that constitutes your hubris.
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When I had no clue as to why I was born or in this world I might have been annoyed that those who spoke of the kingdom of God had hubris. I remeber having no rest in my being in those days.

I had one position in the morning about life. In the evening I had another position. I was restless like the waves of the sea. I just could not figure out what was the meaning of my life.

Jesus taught us "Every one therefore who hears these words of Mine and does them shall be likened to a prudent man who built his house upon a rock. And the rain descended, and the rivers came, and the winds blew, and they beat against that house; and it did nit fall, for it was founded upon a rock.

And every one who hears these words of Mine and does not do them shall be likened to a foolish man who built his house upon the sand. And the rain descended, and the rivers came, and the winds blew, and they dashed against that house; and it fell, and its fall was great." (Matt. 7:24-27)

I want my house to be built upon the solid Rock of Jesus Christ. I am sorry that you see this as "hubris".

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That attitude is what puts you on the same road as every other zealot that kills for his god.
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I haven't killed anyone yet. I don't intend to kill anyone. Should I not follow Jesus because doing so may cause me to lose self control and kill someone?

For length sake I will end this post here.

Originally posted by TerrierJack
"The basic teaching of the Christian Gospel is oneness in Christ"

Exactly, conforming to a norm. Take heart, you are a member of my group because I have no tests. We are all already one.


"I don't yet see how you have answered my question. Your socialogical analysis here really has nothing to do with the the Gospel of Christ."

Are people respo but tho it may explain it, nothing can justify it any longer.

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Think! You are telling me that you know better than I.
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You may be better than I. I am just a sinner saved b grace.
It is not you that should be compared to me. Nor is it me who should be compared to you.

It is how we all compare to the Son of God, Jesus the Lord.
The standard is not jaywill. The standard is God's Son.

We are have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. We all need to be saved in Christ.


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Not only do you know better, you also claim to have the restraint to prevent yourself from overreaching with your pride and usurping the function of judging the poor souls you condemn (as those who don't know better, those troublemakers, those others who are less than human because you perceive that they are cut off from divine wisdom, those demons who are my brothers.)
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Who did I judge? Who did I condemn?

I warn of the righteous God who is the Judge of all, including myself. I share the good news of the Savior Jesus who was judged in our place on His cross. And in Him we pass from condemnation to eternal life.

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"He who commits sin is a slave of sin. So I don't think a society of those slaves to sin is really a free one at all."

But, no, you are not judging those of us who reject your teachings.
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It is not "my teaching" per se. And if they reject they just reject. They may accept Christ the Lord latter. They may not.

What I hear you saying is that basically it is not moral to preach the Gospel to all the nations. I suppose you are opposed to Christ telling His disciples to go into all the world and to preach the Gospel.

Perhaps you think Christians should basically lock themselves in the prayer closet and leave the rest of everybody alone. Is that what you're saying is the more moral way to follow Jesus Christ?

I don't see it that way. I see my need to live Christ, live for Christ, live unto Christ, and to share the good news with those who will listen.

You saying that we all should not bother anyone because to do so is not moral and is double speak sounds reactionary. It sounds like those on the Titanic wishing that the warners that the ship was going to sink were a nuisance for warning people.

Some people will be very very thankful that I did say something to them about Jesus, His love, and His great salvation.

Maybe your annoyed because you never had anything worth being enthusiastic about to tell others ?


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You are not condemning everyone in the world who does not agree with you.
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Is this a question ? You are saying I think "You are not TOLERANT".

I think a true test of tolerance is when someone HAS something of true worth. If a person is sloppy and hase nothing of which they say they are living for, I don't count that as true tolerance.

Show me someone who has something valuable that he firmly believes. Then we can ascertain how tolerant that person is. Sloppiness and not having a clue about life I do not regard as being tolerant.

On this board rarely, if ever, did I stop someone else from talking about their faith. I have participated on a Quran vs Bible discussion.

Did you see me trying to forbid others of posting about Wiccan or Islam or Buddhism or Zen or even Atheism (as long as they did not question the theistic faith) ?

Did you see me going out of my way to point out as morally wrong someone else's Hinduism, or belief in the teaching of Confucius? Go through all the hundreds of discussions started. Look at those proclaiming some other belief. And see if I interrupted them telling them that they were condemned.

I have debated some who unfairly criticized the Christian faith. That I did. I answered questions and challenges.

But your critique of me having "condemned" those who believed another faith I think is greatly exagerrated and not valid.

As a matter of fact the first post I read from TerrierJack was YOU condemning Christians for this and that and the other.

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After all, you have no responsibility for those words that you wrote.
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IF you are expecting me to say {"Boy, you took the words right out of my mouth!" Please don't hold your breath waiting.

I believe that I will give an account to Jesus for every careless word I speak and write. And multiple times on this Forum, I have erased posts which in a further moment I was convicted was NOT Proper in spirit for me to write.


"And I say to you that every idle word which men shall speak, they will render an account concerning it in the day of judgment. For by your words you shall be justified and by your words you shall be condemned." (Matt. 12:36,37)

So I do feel I am responsible for what I write.

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You are not capable of being responsible - you are just following orders.
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I don't agree with this sweeping condemnation from you.

For starters I've been married for over 30 years, raised to children who are no adults in good standing in thier communities, and currently am responsible for two foster children. I have had as many as four at one time living under my roof.

Now I do have a long way to go to be where I think I should be. But your sweeping condemnation I think is a false condemnation.

Face it TerrierJack, you are just really annoyed with people of faith in the Lord Jesus. I haven't seen a plausible case for complaint from you yet.

And besides. Why not get your eyes off of me and study, engross yourself with, and thoroughly dive into who Jesus Christ is ?


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Those people who disagree with you are just sinners anyway - who will miss them when you turn the knob to release the gas?
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No TerrierJack. We ALL have sinned. We share the good news of redemption FROM sin in Jesus.

We ... ALL ... HAVE ... SINNED - especially me.

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Quite frankly, you scare me. You lack the kernel of doubt that makes most of us pause before we act.
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Who said I had no doubts? I think I am on the right track certainly to believe into Christ. But under God's timing I do pass through situations in which my faith IS tested. At that time I do wrestle with doubts of sorts.

But I would say this. When the Holy Spirit comes into your being you receive an assurance which the world cannot take away. The living Person of God becomes real to you.

"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)

The union of my innermost being with the Spirit of the resurrected Jesus Christ is very deep. Now before you said something like "These Christians are afraid of losing their followers."

Well, this sounds like we are afraid that people born will suddenly become UNBORN. How can you become unborn once you are born? And spiritually, once you are born of God, born again, you cannot reverse that. You inter into a relationship which is eternal.

I am not afraid that people who are born of God will suddenly become somehow unborn of God again.

I am concerned that we may bring dishonor to the name of Jesus through immature spiritual living. But you want me to be responsible. Right?

So being concerned that diciples grow to maturity is a concern. But it would be irresponsible not to be concerned for that. It seems that you are just hunting then for ways to blame us. Try one thing and then another.

You say "You're not responsible for your words and actions" But you also say "You scared that you are going to lose your followers."

Which blame game do you want TerrierJack?

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If there is a spark of divinity in the human it is that small space where we recognize that we really just don't know. Without that you actually can't have real faith because faith needs a counterweight.
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Now I think you have hit on something substancial that we can discuss. Unfortunetly I am running out of time and will have to continue probably after the weekend.

But WHY should I try to flaunt my doubts about the Bible to you? Seems this is a damned if you do damned if you don' complaint.

I mean how do I know you won't say "You are not persuaded yourself. Based on your many doubts how should I trust you?"

Then turn around on the other hand and say "You are TOOOO cock sure of everything. How can your faith be real if you do not express some doubts?"

There are plenty of unknowns in my faith. I am concerned with the things that are pretty clear to me.

Even Paul the Apostle did not leave the impression in all his 13 letters that there was absolutely nothing which was mysterious to him, or not fully known.

"For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is complete comes, that which is in part will be rendered useless ... Now we see in a mirror obscurely, but at that time face to face, now I know in part, but at that time I will fully know even as also I was fully known.

Now there abide faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love." (See 1 Cor. 13:9-13)

I do have questions. And I do admit that some things are unknown
at this time. So I have faith. But I have faith that we are on the right track to trust in Jesus.

You may be better than I

You have a comprehension problem. I did not claim to be better. I said that YOU CLAIMED TO KNOW BETTER. If you don't then why are you preaching? To spread falsehoods?

It is really simple - I don't care what your personal beliefs are - I am not passing judgment on whether they are true or not. (Do you get that? I'm tired of repeating it.) I am merely pointing out that the reason why religions like yours breed bad actions is because their followers are encouraged to act in accordance with the will of a deity. If those religions DO NOT CLAIM TO KNOW what that will is then how can they ask someone to act in accordance with it. If they claim to know those divine instructions then they CLAIM TO KNOW BETTER than everyone who DOES NOT ACCEPT their version of those instructions. Now, I know, you're going to tell me you have a book but a book cannot absolve you of RESPONSIBILITY. People with books have been killing each other since writing was invented. Likewise if they themselves are not involved in the bad actions the followers ALWAYS respond by saying that their previously in good standing brothers are not "really" following the book. But in practice they continue to separate people into a group that "needs" their teaching (in other words, the people who ARE WRONG) and those who have accepted their teaching (the people who ARE RIGHT.) What I am saying is that that ACT OF JUDGMENT is what enables inhumanity. (Note that I specifically said [and will say again so you don't continue to misconstrue my meaning] that I AM NOT PASSING JUDGMENT on whether anyone's beliefs are true!) I am ALSO NOT SAYING that every person that CLAIMS TO KNOWS BETTER will commit an atrocity. I am saying that ALL who do commit atrocities start at that basic point: "they know better."

I don't know better. Don't claim to know better. That is why there are not 2 groups for me. If someone does claim to know better then they have already divided up all the people in the world. I don't care whether they are just following orders (or a book, or a person, or the delusional voices in their head) they are still RESPONSIBLE for that division because they assent to it. Live with it. It is not persecution to point out the facts. If you don't want to enable murders then quit making it easy for them to demonize others and just accept the rest of us the way we are.

http://www.newsadvance.com/lna/news/local/article/lu_pulls_plug_on_democratic_club/16172

Ready for a democratic society?

Originally posted by TerrierJack
[b]You may be better than I

You have a comprehension problem. I did not claim to be better. I said that YOU CLAIMED TO KNOW BETTER. If you don't then why are you preaching? To spread falsehoods?

It is really simple - I don't care what your personal beliefs are - I am not passing judgment on whether they are true or not. (Do you get that? I'm ...[text shortened]... easy for them to demonize others and just accept the rest of us the way we are.[/b]

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I am saying that ALL who do commit atrocities start at that basic point: "they know better."
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So if ALL who commit atrocities claim to know better than all who know better will commit atrocities ?

But you claim to know better. You claim to know better than preachy religious types. Right?

Why else would you be exhorting me of dangers? You must feel that I am naive or unaware so as needing warning or at least some education.

All who commit atrocities start with this premise - they know better than others.

So should we be worried that you are about to commit atrocities ?

Originally posted by jaywill
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I am saying that ALL who do commit atrocities start at that basic point: "they know better."
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So if ALL who commit atrocities claim to know better than all who know better will commit atrocities ?

But you claim to know better. You claim to know better than preachy r ...[text shortened]... know better than others.

So should we be worried that you are about to commit atrocities ?[/b]

If you cannot read and comprehend there's not much point in any further response.

I specifically said that claiming to know better does not mean someone will commit atrocities.

I specifically said that I did not claim to know better. I specifically made no claim about the truth of falsity of your beliefs.

I am saying that you were not just claiming that you have a certain opinion of the will of the deity but that you also believed that everyone else was wrong about their opinions. Do you deny this? I never said your beliefs about the will of the deity were wrong (I don't prefer them myself. I also prefer vanilla to chocolate ice cream but can easily live in a world where others are free to choose chocolate.) It is because you cannot live with my choice that you are dangerous. Once upon a time the christian authorities in europe could not live with arianism so everyone that espoused that idea was persecuted - those authorities claimed to know better. I on the other hand would never support persecuting you because of your preferences. I wouldn't even persecute you for "claiming to know better" - I just pointed out why from a psychological and social standpoint it was easier for people who "claimed to know better" to support persecution - it is because they see everyone else as wrong that they end up devaluing their humanity. I don't want to devalue your humanity. I feel no compulsion to persuade, force, or trick you into sharing my preferences. As long as you don't hurt anyone I don't care whether you preach, or whine, or sit on your porch every sunday sipping scotch and soda. I can live with you being different. I am not claiming to know better than you - I could be wrong about my preferences - I may be the worst person on the earth for all I know - but I would never waste my time looking down on what someone else honestly feels - I respect their feeling - I wish you could respect mine (and everyone's.)

Originally posted by TerrierJack
If you cannot read and comprehend there's not much point in any further response.

I specifically said that claiming to know better does not mean someone will commit atrocities.

I specifically said that I did not claim to know better. I specifically made no claim about the truth of falsity of your beliefs.

I am saying that you were not just clai ...[text shortened]... tly feels - I respect their feeling - I wish you could respect mine (and everyone's.)

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If you cannot read and comprehend there's not much point in any further response.

I specifically said that claiming to know better does not mean someone will commit atrocities.

I specifically said that I did not claim to know better. I specifically made no claim about the truth of falsity of your beliefs.
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I realize what you said. But what are you actually doing.

I will read your paragraph below very carefully though, latter.

Your patience and labor I do not regard lightly.

Please listen a little more.

I am not denying that I have an opinion - it seems that your problem with understanding me stems from the inability to conceptualize the fact that someone can hold an opinion without believing that others holding contrary opinions are wrong. I do, many do. I will argue reason with you all day long but at my core I can only conclude that something you might say is either reasonable to me or not. As I said - I do not feel the compulsion to be right - I just know what I prefer and what is reasonable to me. The reason I brought up the socio-historical argument was because the religions of the early city states were specifically about compelling their followers to adhere to a social norms for the preservation of the society. That is why you have a "jealous god." Note again - I'm not saying he's not in his heaven. I am saying it is a pretty simple matter is most cases to trace attitudes to consequences. If you find a religion that divides people then you find one that makes it easier for people to do bad things in its name. I am not saying that every tenet of that religion is responsible for that - only the part that is about enforcing the belief.

For instance, do you deny that christian authorities have persecuted those in the past whose crime was to hold different interpretations of doctrine? How do you yourself feel about arianism? If you heard someone in your church say tomorrow that they did not believe in the concept of the trinity would you tell them that they are wrong? Do they risk hell? What if they said that there was no devil?

I'm diagnosing an illness - not trying to determine its moral standing. Does cancer have a moral standing? If you sincerely believe that your beliefs are only good to you if you can use them to contrast your "rightness" with other's "wrongness" then what can I say? I'm only trying to use reason to show you where that leads. I suspect it is possible for you to hold the beliefs you do on doctrine and discard that malady and learn to respect the choices of others. I would rather have a world without persecution and a multitude of opinions than one with persecution and a single acceptable opinion. Which do you prefer?

Originally posted by TerrierJack
If you cannot read and comprehend there's not much point in any further response.

I specifically said that claiming to know better does not mean someone will commit atrocities.

I specifically said that I did not claim to know better. I specifically made no claim about the truth of falsity of your beliefs.

I am saying that you were not just clai tly feels - I respect their feeling - I wish you could respect mine (and everyone's.)

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I am saying that you were not just claiming that you have a certain opinion of the will of the deity but that you also believed that everyone else was wrong about their opinions.
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It is not as cut and dry as you would like to make it. I believe that there are elements of truth in other beliefs. Of course there is much truth to be found in philosophies and other faiths.

It is not correctness but a living Person that the Christian Gospel emphasizes. "Born" as in "born again" is a matter of a new life and not simply of agreeing with the correct axioms.

www.regenerated.net

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Do you deny this?
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Jesus is the Son of God who died and rose. This is truth. It is not only truth. It is true truth.

In other words it is not just "true for me" but "not true for someone who does not believe it."

I offer no apologies for proclaiming that Jesus is the resurrected Lord and Savior.


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I never said your beliefs about the will of the deity were wrong (I don't prefer them myself. I also prefer vanilla to chocolate ice cream but can easily live in a world where others are free to choose chocolate.) It is because you cannot live with my choice that you are dangerous.
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LOL. I'm doing quite well living with your choice. Who said I could not bear to live on because of your choice??

Besides, you do not know that you will not decide latter to receive Jesus into your heart. Maybe someday you will.

I'll live on quite well either way.

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Once upon a time the christian authorities in europe could not live with arianism so everyone that espoused that idea was persecuted - those authorities claimed to know better.
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They lived with it. They may not have allowed it to define the orthodox faith.

As for persecuting it physically, this was against the command of Christ. He said that the wheat and the tares should be permitted to grow together in the world. And He said that His servants should not try to root out the tares from the world.

He did not say that they should allow the wheat and the tares to grow together in the church, but just that the tares should not be rooted out of the world.

This became a problem when the church and the world became too mixed up together. But the attempt of the Roman Catholic Church to exterminate false teachers from the world was clearly against the command of Christ.

Jesus said that the angels would do that at the close of the age (See Matt. 13:24-30 and 36-43) The reason Jesus gave was that the disciples would likely make mistakes and root up real Christians for false ones. This in fact DID occur. See Foxe's Book of Christian Martyrs.

Evangelical Christians should not try to exterminate false Christians or false Christian teachers out of the world. However, they do not have to accomodate them tolerantly within the local church. Either way, Jesus did not teach the disciples to kill or torture anyone.

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I feel no compulsion to persuade, force, or trick you into sharing my preferences.
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I feel no compulsion to force or trick or persuade you against your will either. I will give a reason for the hope that is within me though.

Don't expect me to just lie down passively when you make unjust criticisms of our following of Christ. Turning the other cheek doesn't mean that we will not present another side to your possibly unjust critique of the Christian Gospel.

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As long as you don't hurt anyone I don't care whether you preach, or whine, or sit on your porch every sunday sipping scotch and soda.
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Cute.

Now, do you have a list of people I have persecuted, tortured, killed, jailed for not saying Amen to my preaching?

Or is this just bluster and scatter shot ?

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I can live with you being different.
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I've got it. I've got it already. Are you suppose to be the first person in the world who said "No Thanks" to the Gospel ?

If you don't like Baseball you don't hang around Yankee Stadium. And if you don't want to run into people who talk about Christ and Spirituality why hang around a Spirituality Forum ?

You have every right to talk about your own beliefs don't you ?

The first post I read from you was a general criticism of Christians. How come I didn't simply read about you talking about your own beliefs in Spirituality ? You went out of your way to pick a fight with Christians.

So why you coming off with such a Victim attitude then?
And besides , What did Jesus do to you anyway ?

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I respect their feeling - I wish you could respect mine (and everyone's.)
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I do. I have to reject your insistance that just because I feel strongly about what I believe that means I do not respect other people's right to differ.

Now, I think we're through. Have a super life. You do your thing, I'll do mine. But know that Jesus loves you.

Originally posted by jaywill
If you don't want to run into people who talk about Christ and Spirituality why hang around a Spirituality Forum ?

There is a really simple answer for that one: why should I concede that only those who speak of christ are allowed to have spirituality? I have already said that I have a faith that I practice and that I consider religion to be an important part of humanity. Even saying that (as with many other things you've said) demonstrates the factual nature of my original claim that you are exclusionary. I never said you didn't have the right to be here and discuss these issues.

BTW - as for the jesus or whatever, I personally have no use for it. As a practical matter it seems (to me) to do more harm than good. I reserve the right to bitch. The whole godhead issue is (to me) as ridiculous as Santa Claus. Can you grok that? People don't say that to you to insult you but only to give you the truth of their own heart. If you have that feeling (as I've said) it doesn't bother me but if you honestly ask me then I can only honestly answer that whenever I hear the name jesus I see a redheaded clown dancing in a polka-dot suit with a big red nose. But that causes me no pain or doubt. As Walt Whitman said, "I cannot tell you how at peace I am about God and the Universe."

I have to a good degree lived a blessed life and I look forward to a happy death. I love my wife, my children, my friends and family and my dogs and to do that I honestly don't need certainty - I just need to feel I'm being honest with myself and others.