1. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    19 Jan '15 20:121 edit
    "Evidence You Can’t Ignore"

    "The title of this article is “Evidence You Can’t Ignore”. That, however, is unfortunately and obviously, not the total truth. You can choose to ignore anything you wish to. However, the evidence supporting Jesus Christ is VERY strong, and if you walk away not at least thinking about the possibility that Jesus is who he said he is, then you should seriously question your objectivity.

    To me, fulfilled prophecy of Jesus Christ is the most compelling and logical reason to believe in Christianity. The evidence here is simply overwhelming. These prophecies were made hundreds of years before Jesus was born. This is documented fact. The Jewish Scriptures pre-date Christianity by over 800-1000 years. Jews have been reciting the prophecies of the Messiah that long (generation to generation). The Dead Sea Scrolls, uncovered from1947-1956, prove the ancient nature of these prophecies, if there was ever any doubt (There really wasn’t).

    There are over 300 individual, separate, and specific prophecies of the Messiah in the Jewish scriptures that Jesus Christ fulfilled. Do you realize how significant, how compelling this evidence is? Peter Stoner was the Chairman of the Departments of Mathematics and Astronomy at Pasadena City College until 1953, and Chairman of the Science Division of Westmont College from 1953 to 1957. Stoner calculated the probability of one man fulfilling only 8 Messianic prophecies was one in 10^17. He further calculated the odds of one person fulfilling just 48 of the over 300 prophecies was one chance in 10^157! It’s ludicrous. The American Scientific Affiliation even gave Stoner’s work their stamp of approval:"

    "The manuscript for Science Speaks has been carefully reviewed by a committee of the American Scientific Affiliation members and by the Executive Council of the same group and has been found, in general, to be dependable and accurate in regard to the scientific material presented. The mathematical analysis included is based upon principles of probability which are thoroughly sound and Professor Stoner has applied these principles in a proper and convincing way." (American Scientific Affiliation, H. Harold Hartzler, Ph.D., Secretary-Treasurer, Goshen College)

    "The fulfillments were witnessed by countless people and are some of the most well documented events in all of recorded history. Many of these events are recorded, not only by followers of Jesus Christ, but also by Roman and Jewish officials and historians. You can’t just reason this evidence away. It is simply too incontrovertible. For emphasis, I thought it would be relevant to discuss a few of the major ones. Here are 7 specific prophecies that were fulfilled by Jesus and only Jesus.

    1. The exact day of Jesus entry into Jerusalem as the “conquering King”

    The time he entered Jerusalem and was hailed as “King” was predicted down to the very day!

    Prophecy:

    “Now listen and understand! Seven sets of seven plus sixty-two sets of seven will pass from the time the command is given to rebuild Jerusalem until a ruler—the Anointed One—comes. Jerusalem will be rebuilt with streets and strong defenses, despite the perilous times.” ~ Daniel 9:25

    "That’s (7*7) + (7*62) = 483 Hebrew years. Each Hebrew year is 360 days, so a total of 173,880 days. Jesus triumphal entry into Jerusalem occurred exactly 173,880 days after Artaxerxes’ decree was given in 445 B.C. (as recorded in Nehemiah 2:1-20) to rebuild Jerusalem! This was the first time that Jesus allowed anyone to proclaim him as “King”. This is a major fulfillment of prophesy.

    Fulfillment:

    “Six days before the Passover celebration began, Jesus arrived in Bethany, the home of Lazarus. . . The next day, the news that Jesus was on the way to Jerusalem swept through the city. A large crowd of Passover visitors took palm branches and went down the road to meet him. They shouted, “Praise God! Blessings on the one who comes in the name of the Lord! Hail to the King of Israel!” ~ John 12:1, 12-13

    "Another prophecy about this same event when Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the back a donkey is..." (Part 1of 7)

    https://philippians1v21.wordpress.com/why-believe-in-jesus/evidence-you-cant-ignore/

    "I am Scotsman in the tradition of my heritage: a warrior, a poet, a patriot, a scientist and engineer, a musician, a student of history, a defender of freedom, and a lover of Jesus Christ. I have been an Officer, a Captain in the US Air Force. I have served in Oman, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Kyrgyzstan.

    I have been a Flight Test Engineer and a Program Manager. I am a Boeing Engineer designing the next version of the 747 passenger and freighter aircraft. That is what I am on my own. Jesus Christ has rescued my soul and through Him I am so much more. Those are now my disguises. What I really am is a bond servant of Jesus Christ. A missionary immersed in one of the most indifferent cultures towards Jesus Christ to ever exist. It is my endeavor to live for Christ and through Christ. For me to live is Christ. He is the focus, direction, and meaning in my life. Everything I do is in Him and through Him. I am his tool to create more and better followers of Jesus. Te Deum Laudamus ~Jake McWhirter"

    https://philippians1v21.wordpress.com/about/

    Question: Do you concur with these findings? If not, aren't you interested in considering the claims of Christ?
  2. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    19 Jan '15 21:28
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    However, the evidence supporting Jesus Christ is VERY strong, ...
    Even the evidence supporting Jesus the man is not "VERY strong"
    let alone him being special./
  3. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    20 Jan '15 16:20
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    "Evidence You Can’t Ignore"

    [i]"The title of this article is “Evidence You Can’t Ignore”. That, however, is unfortunately and obviously, not the total truth. You can choose to ignore anything you wish to. However, the evidence supporting Jesus Christ is VERY strong, and if you walk away not at least thinking about the possibility that Jesus i ...[text shortened]... o you concur with these findings? If not, aren't you interested in considering the claims of Christ?
    "Evidence You Can’t Ignore"

    "Another prophecy about this same event when Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the back a donkey is: “Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout in triumph, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your king is coming to you; He is just and endowed with salvation, Humble, and mounted on a donkey, even on a colt, the foal of a donkey.” ~ Zechariah 9:9
    ______________________________________

    2. The Messiah Born of a Virgin

    Prophecy:


    “Therefore the LORD Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.” ~ Isaiah 7:14 Immanuel means, God with us. The angel that visited Joseph quoted this passage to him, Matt 1:22-24.

    3. The Birthplace of the Messiah

    The small village of Bethlehem was prophesied as the birthplace of the Messiah. This is amazing, especially when you consider the events that had to take place for this to occur since Jesus’ family was from Nazareth (100 miles from Bethlehem). It is also said elsewhere in the Jewish scriptures that the Messiah “come out of Egypt” (Hosea 11:1).
    Jesus fit all of these.

    Prophecy:

    "But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, are only a small village among all the people of Judah. Yet a ruler of Israel will come from you, one whose origins are from the distant past. ~ Micah 5:2

    Fulfillment: “Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the reign of King Herod. About that time some wise men from eastern lands arrived in Jerusalem, asking, “Where is the newborn king of the Jews? We saw his star as it rose and we have come to worship him.” ~ Matt 2:1-2 ~Jake McWhirter (Part 2 and 3 of 7)

    https://philippians1v21.wordpress.com/why-believe-in-jesus/evidence-you-cant-ignore/
  4. Standard memberRemoved
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    20 Jan '15 18:01
    Yes, I concur!


    It is my endeavor to live for Christ and through Christ. For me to live is Christ. He is the focus, direction, and meaning in my life.


    Christ is not asking us to live for Him. He is asking us to let Him live through us (Gal. 2:20)
  5. Joined
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    20 Jan '15 18:07
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    Yes, I concur!


    It is my endeavor to live for Christ and through Christ. For me to live is Christ. He is the focus, direction, and meaning in my life.


    Christ is not asking us to live for Him. He is asking us to let Him live through us (Gal. 2:20)
    Galatians 2:20
    I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

    Liberty!
  6. Cape Town
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    20 Jan '15 19:33
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    Question: Do you concur with these findings?
    No, I do not concur with the findings. Firstly, the writer makes a rather obvious major error by ignoring the fact that the writers of the New Testament were well aware of most of the prophesies in question.
    So you need to ask: which is more likely, that the writers made the stories fit the prophesy, or that the prophesies were actually fulfilled?
    And that is before you even look at whether the prophesies were in fact apparently fulfilled or whether it is merely creative interpretation by modern readers that is involved.

    If not, aren't you interested in considering the claims of Christ?
    If you can present to me a prophesy that is in the Old Testament that the writers of the New Testament were not aware of, that is not ambiguous in its predictions and that is fulfilled in the New Testament account, then I will be interested. Not before.
  7. Germany
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    21 Jan '15 10:26
    Nothing like a good ole ad hoc prophecy. I got some more.

    Prophecy: in this post, I will write the number "276."

    276.

    Amazing!
  8. Standard memberDeepThought
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    21 Jan '15 11:46
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    [b]"Evidence You Can’t Ignore"

    [i]"The title of this article is “Evidence You Can’t Ignore”. That, however, is unfortunately and obviously, not the total truth. You can choose to ignore anything you wish to. However, the evidence supporting Jesus Christ is VERY strong, and if you walk away not at least thinking about the possibility that Jesu ...[text shortened]... u concur with these findings? If not, aren't you interested in considering the claims of Christ?[/b]
    How did Stoner assign probabilities to prophecies being fulfilled? The claim that many non-Christian sources recorded fulfillments of Prophecy simply isn't true. There are three references to Christ outside of the Bible. One from Tacitus and two from Josephus. The American Scientific Affiliation is a Christian religious organisation, I dispute their objectiveness.
  9. Joined
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    21 Jan '15 12:01
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Nothing like a good ole ad hoc prophecy. I got some more.

    [b]Prophecy
    : in this post, I will write the number "276."

    276.

    Amazing![/b]
    That's not a prophecy. But if you were to say you would write the number 276 in this forum again just before your death, in 30 or 40 years, I might begin to believe it.
  10. Joined
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    21 Jan '15 12:054 edits
    Some skeptics seem to ask "Give me prophecy that will absolutely bludgeon me and force me into believing."

    With prophecy there is usually some residue of possibility "But maybe it was a coincidence." It seems God allows you a way out if you want one.

    Places like Internet Infidels have to life long mission of raising a possible objection. There is always a way to raise a possible objection. And we will see a lot of that in this thread.

    Now we do not know what prophecy the New Testament writers were not aware of. We may know of prophetic like utterances that they did not write about.

    IE. The life of Joseph very closely resembles the life of Jesus Christ.
    Joseph's life experience was like a symbolic prophecy of Christ.

    Joseph:
    Persecuted for His "dreams".
    Right in his living.
    Betrayed by His brothers.
    Sold cheaply.
    Placed in a pit for three days.
    Unfairly condemned by lies.
    Set with two prisoners - one saved and one condemned.
    Taken out and become a high ruler.
    Not recognized by his brothers which eventually are forced to come to him for salvation.
    Dealing with them to educate them and cause them to see the wrong of their doing.
    Hiding for a season his great affection for them.
    Eventually revealing himself to them and saving them.

    The life of Joseph foreshadows the life of the Son of God. Persecuted for their very words by kinsmen. Nowhere in the New Testament do the writers explicitly say that Joseph was a prophetic type of Christ. But it seems obvious to many readers of the Bible.

    Anyone laboring enough can offer some plausible reason to doubt these things ever happened. The unbelieving may always respond - "You still have not yet forced me to believe the Bible."

    I don't think there is a discussion of prophecy which will force a person against thier will to accept that claims concerning Christ are divine.

    Suppose I stated that the only proof I would accept is seeing that someone unbelieving was convinced and remained unbelieving -

    "Show me an Atheist who was convinced that God existed and that Jesus was His Son and still remained an Atheist. Then I will be convinced."

    That is likely never to happen. The person convinced became a believer.

    I think the nature of faith is that there is perhaps always a side door you can elect to escape out with a reasoning "Maybe it was not God. Maybe it was just a coincidence." That you can reason exhaustively so in that manner I think just demonstrates that you cannot be forced to believe in God.

    The doubting of Thomas shows that among the twelve disciples was one very scientific minded skeptic. No matter WHAT, he was not going to follow some idealistic dream foolishly. "Unless I put my hands in the very wholes of his body I will not believe. "

    No matter how wonderful it sounds, Thomas will not go over the edge unless he is indisputable empirical scientific proof. Thomas did end up believing. But Jesus indicates that even then he could have chosen to not believe.

    Among Christ's followers "some doubted" even up to the closing statements of Christ after His resurrection and just before His ascension (Matt.28:17) .

    - - - sonship
  11. Joined
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    21 Jan '15 12:09
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    How did Stoner assign probabilities to prophecies being fulfilled? The claim that many non-Christian sources recorded fulfillments of Prophecy simply isn't true. There are three references to Christ outside of the Bible. One from Tacitus and two from Josephus. The American Scientific Affiliation is a Christian religious organisation, I dispute their objectiveness.
    http://www.bibleevidences.com/prophecy.htm
  12. Cape Town
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    21 Jan '15 13:22
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    There are three references to Christ outside of the Bible. One from Tacitus and two from Josephus.
    Actually there are billions of references to Christ. However every single one of them could have had the Biblical writings as its source. Tacitus and Josephus were writing after the Christians had already been around for a while and the first books of the New Testament would probably already have been written.
  13. Cape Town
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    21 Jan '15 13:26
    Originally posted by gswilm
    Some skeptics seem to ask "Give me prophecy that will absolutely bludgeon me and force me into believing."
    All I ask for is something that cannot reasonably attributed to something other than a sign of genuine foreknowledge by the writer. As long as the most reasonable explanation is not genuine foreknowledge by the writer then the prophesy demonstrates nothing of particular interest.
  14. Standard memberDeepThought
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    21 Jan '15 15:01
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Actually there are billions of references to Christ. However every single one of them could have had the Biblical writings as its source. Tacitus and Josephus were writing after the Christians had already been around for a while and the first books of the New Testament would probably already have been written.
    The point is that Tacitus and Josephus were both writing circa 100 A.D., they're relatively close to the events and unlikely to be influenced by the Christians. The second reference of Josephus [1] was to the stoning of James, brother of Jesus, and unlikely to be relying solely on Christian sources. Anyone writing after 395 A.D. had better toe the Christian line. I do not think there are any other non-Christian sources which are independent, in the sense of not just repeating what the Christians told them happened.

    So I'd like someone to present some evidence from an independent source, if there are so many of them it should be easy. Also I'd like a reference such as Tacitus, Annals Book 15 chapter 44, I don't want a link to a Christian site like the one josephw gave above. I also don't want to be told that all the relevant information is in the Bible, the OP justifies the New Testament in terms of the Old Testament, which it is hardly independent of.

    I'm not arguing with people believing in this, I'm arguing that they cannot claim proof or certainty at any kind of academically rigorous level which is what is being claimed in the OP.

    [1] Josephus, The Antiquities of the Jews, Book XX, Chapter 9.
  15. Cape Town
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    21 Jan '15 17:48
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    The point is that Tacitus and Josephus were both writing circa 100 A.D., they're relatively close to the events and unlikely to be influenced by the Christians.
    Unless I am mistaken, they were writing about the Christians, so of course they were influenced by them.

    The second reference of Josephus [1] was to the stoning of James, brother of Jesus, and unlikely to be relying solely on Christian sources.
    James wasn't Christian?

    You are however correct that it is possible that they were not relying solely on Christian sources, and I now see why you separated them from the rest.
    But I do think it is within the realm of possibility that Jesus was an entirely fictional character.
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