1. Joined
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    31 Oct '08 11:58
    I invite KellyJay, but also others, in a discussion about faith.

    Is faith more or less important than hard facts. If you see something and sccience disporve it, then what is more important, your faith or the solid science?

    If two persons faiths contradict eachother, can the two faiths coexist, mutually excluding eachother? Or must it be so that one faith can be the right one and the other be wrong?

    How important is faith? Are you willing to go to your own death because of your faith? Or do you value your life higher than your faith?

    Can anyone give a clear cut definition of 'faith'? Is it possible...?

    Okay, JK, let's talk faith!
  2. England
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    01 Nov '08 10:58
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    I invite KellyJay, but also others, in a discussion about faith.

    Is faith more or less important than hard facts. If you see something and sccience disporve it, then what is more important, your faith or the solid science?

    If two persons faiths contradict eachother, can the two faiths coexist, mutually excluding eachother? Or must it be so that one ...[text shortened]... one give a clear cut definition of 'faith'? Is it possible...?

    Okay, JK, let's talk faith!
    unless im interupting, faith is from the heart, in a god who made all.
    science proves what is before our eyes. my faith is more important but science is facts we have.
    2 persons contardit each other both can be wrong but there is only one right way, towhich both should strive to find.
    i would like to belive my faith is stronger than my value to life, but that would be the ulterment challange
  3. Standard memberRajk999
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    01 Nov '08 11:071 edit
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    ...Can anyone give a clear cut definition of 'faith'? Is it possible...?

    Hebrews 11 :1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
    2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
    3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
    4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
    5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
    6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
    7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
    8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
    9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
    10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
    11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
    12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
    13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
    14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
    15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
    16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
    17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son.
    18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
    19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
    20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
    21 By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.
    22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.
    23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.
    24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
    25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
    26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompense of the reward.
    27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
    28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
    29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.
    30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.
    31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
    32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
    33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
    34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
    35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
    36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
    37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
    38 (Of whom the world was not worthy: they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
    39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
    40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
  4. Joined
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    01 Nov '08 19:281 edit
    Well done. Exegesis ALWAYS has a place in the reading of scripture, where you take the entire story or thought in its context, rather than piecemeal dissections of sentences dtrung together to come to a predefined conclusion. Thank you, Rajk999, for providing a scripture passage and not a bunch of sentences plucked from different parts of the Bible.
  5. Joined
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    01 Nov '08 20:24
    Originally posted by stoker
    unless im interupting, faith is from the heart, in a god who made all.
    science proves what is before our eyes. my faith is more important but science is facts we have.
    2 persons contardit each other both can be wrong but there is only one right way, towhich both should strive to find.
    i would like to belive my faith is stronger than my value to life, but that would be the ulterment challange
    (unless im interupting,)
    No you aren't, you're invited to share your thoughts.

    (faith is from the heart, in a god who made all.)
    Does this mean that what I feel right from my heart, that is also right in every sense?

    (my faith is more important but science is facts we have.)
    If science says something you don't believe, does your faith lead you to the right answer?

    (2 persons contardit each other both can be wrong but there is only one right way, towhich both should strive to find.)
    What is the method of finding the right way?

    (I would like to belive my faith is stronger than my value to life, but that would be the ulterment challange)
    Can you chose your death based on your faith if your faith is strong enough?
  6. Cape Town
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    01 Nov '08 20:30
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Hebrews 11 :1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
    2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
    3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
    I don't understand all that. Can you explain it?
    It seems verse 1 defines faith and the rest of the verses are an attempt at demonstrating how useful faith has been to various people.
    But what I cant see is how to apply the definition, or how it can be applied to the people mentioned in the other verses.
    How does 3. follow from 1.?
  7. Standard memberRajk999
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    01 Nov '08 21:36
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I don't understand all that. Can you explain it?
    It seems verse 1 defines faith and the rest of the verses are an attempt at demonstrating how useful faith has been to various people.
    But what I cant see is how to apply the definition, or how it can be applied to the people mentioned in the other verses.
    How does 3. follow from 1.?
    My interpretation/wording is as follows:

    V1 Faith is believing in something even though we cannot see it or have proof of its existance or that it is in fact true.

    V2 Through faith many found favour with God.

    V3 Through faith we understand & believe that God created the world/time/the universe and what we see is just the tip of the iceberg. Much goes on without our knowing and seeing.

    Linking v1 & v3 - Faith makes one believe that God is the creator and is in control of the destiny of man, but we cannot see how this is being done behind the scenes. There is no proof of this control by God.

    The examples which follow are some of those whose faith either saved them or were rewarded by God in some way. Thats my interpretation, and I dont claim to fully understand all the verses.
  8. Account suspended
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    01 Nov '08 21:561 edit
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I don't understand all that. Can you explain it?
    It seems verse 1 defines faith and the rest of the verses are an attempt at demonstrating how useful faith has been to various people.
    But what I cant see is how to apply the definition, or how it can be applied to the people mentioned in the other verses.
    How does 3. follow from 1.?
    yes its quite simple, first an alternative translation of hebrews 11:1,

    ''Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld.''

    from this we note that, for Christians, faith is the confident expectation, based on assurances, that the things we hope for will come true

    thus when we break down the verse we can determine that the Greek word hypostasis rendered “assured expectation” at Hebrews 11:1 was commonly used in ancient papyrus business documents to convey the idea of something that guarantees future possession. Scholars Moulton and Milligan suggest the rendering: “Faith is the title deed of things hoped for.” (Vocabulary of the Greek Testament) so obviously, if a person possesses the title deed to property, he can have the “assured expectation” that someday his hope to obtain it will be realized. this is important because it contrasts with modern concepts of faith as something possible, hopefully true, but not certain.

    we can see this from the next phrase, the Greek word translated “evident demonstration” greek, elegkhos which conveys the idea of presenting evidence to demonstrate something, particularly something contrary to what appears to be the case. Positive or concrete evidence makes clear what previously went undiscerned, thereby refuting what only appeared to be the case. So in both the Hebrew and the Greek Scriptures, faith is by no means “firm belief in something for which there is no proof.” On the contrary, faith is based on truth or realities.

    what , for a Christan are these realities? Christ stated that your word is truth (gods word is truth), John 17:17, therefore what actually happens is that when a Christian meditates on Gods word, events in the past, the promises relating to future events, prophecies etc so deeply effect his mind and mental perception that he becomes convinced that such things are real, although he has yet not seen them, thus Paul relates ancient servants of God who served in this capacity.

    it must be noted that faith is not the possession of all people (2 Thessalonians 3:2), but must be cultivated, exercised and is a derivative of Gods Holy spirit (Galatians 5:22), Christ himself is described as the perfecter of a Christians faith, and we are encouraged to look intently at the model of Christ to attain to this,

    so in conclusion, for a Christan faith is not firm belief in something for which there is no proof, no no, that could never be, but rather faith is based on truth or realities, which are well documented and available to more than 90% of the planet, in the modest form of a book, entitled Gods Holy Word, the Bible, if you want faith, as a Christian i would suggest becoming well acquainted with it - regards Robbie.
  9. Standard memberKellyJay
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    01 Nov '08 22:36
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    I invite KellyJay, but also others, in a discussion about faith.

    Is faith more or less important than hard facts. If you see something and sccience disporve it, then what is more important, your faith or the solid science?

    If two persons faiths contradict eachother, can the two faiths coexist, mutually excluding eachother? Or must it be so that one ...[text shortened]... one give a clear cut definition of 'faith'? Is it possible...?

    Okay, JK, let's talk faith!
    When you define faith exactly how is it defined according to you?
    Do you only use the word faith when speaking about religion?
    Let us define the term so we can see how we all look at it.
    Kelly
  10. Standard memberKellyJay
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    01 Nov '08 22:38
    Originally posted by stoker
    unless im interupting, faith is from the heart, in a god who made all.
    science proves what is before our eyes. my faith is more important but science is facts we have.
    2 persons contardit each other both can be wrong but there is only one right way, towhich both should strive to find.
    i would like to belive my faith is stronger than my value to life, but that would be the ulterment challange
    So according to what you think about the term faith it is only applied
    when speaking about God/god/gods?
    Kelly
  11. Fichtekränzi
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    01 Nov '08 22:45
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    [...]
    If two persons faiths contradict eachother, can the two faiths coexist, mutually excluding eachother? Or must it be so that one faith can be the right one and the other be wrong?
    [...]
    That is one of the greatest problems of mankind.
    Some religions teach tollerance, some don't.
    For example, the qur'an says in sura 109.6 "You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion." (see http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/109.qmt.html)
    In my ears that sounds like the general tollerance of the islam
    ( like the rest of this very short sura ).

    But am I right?

    I think (or should I say, I believe?), that it does not matter, what your faith is about, but what your faith implies about the faith of other people.
  12. Standard memberRajk999
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    01 Nov '08 23:58
    Originally posted by afx
    That is one of the greatest problems of mankind.
    Some religions teach tollerance, some don't.
    For example, the qur'an says in sura 109.6 "You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion." (see http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/109.qmt.html)
    In my ears that sounds like the general tollerance of the islam
    ( like the rest of this very short sura ).
    ...[text shortened]... tter, what your faith is about, but what your faith implies about the faith of other people.
    The same holy book calls for death to apostates.
  13. Illinois
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    02 Nov '08 03:49
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    I invite KellyJay, but also others, in a discussion about faith.

    Is faith more or less important than hard facts. If you see something and sccience disporve it, then what is more important, your faith or the solid science?

    If two persons faiths contradict eachother, can the two faiths coexist, mutually excluding eachother? Or must it be so that one ...[text shortened]... one give a clear cut definition of 'faith'? Is it possible...?

    Okay, JK, let's talk faith!
    The faith spoken of in the Bible is supernatural and surpasses all understanding (Phil. 4:7). It comes about as a response to hearing the Gospel (Rom. 10:17). It's a mystery why some believe the Gospel and others do not (Rom. 9:15). Faith is a gift from God (Eph. 2:8).

    Faith, biblically speaking, is definitely not a mere mental assent which can be swayed this way or that by scientific discovery or philosophical argumentation (James 2:19).

    Faith arises from hearing the Gospel (Message) of Christ (Rom. 10:17). The Gospel, i.e., the message of the cross, is the power of God (1 Cor. 1:18). That is, the message of the cross is foolishness to the world (and its reliance upon human wisdom; read: science and philosophy), and God uses the message of the cross, because it is foolishness to the world, in order to bring human wisdom to naught and to demonstrate His power in those who believe (1 Cor. 1:21).
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    02 Nov '08 05:53
    [/ignore]So Judaism does not have faith? What you're saying is nearly anti-Semitic. At best, once again I'm reading a mindless put-down of other religions. You'd never know Jesus was a Jew, listening to your drivel.[ignore]
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    02 Nov '08 09:37
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    When you define faith exactly how is it defined according to you?
    Do you only use the word faith when speaking about religion?
    Let us define the term so we can see how we all look at it.
    Kelly
    That's what I've been asking for. And recieved. And this faith seems to be a religious idea.

    Faith for me is when you believe something without having observations or proofs that confirms it.
    Do I have faith in atoms? No, because I believe in the proofs for their existance.
    Do I have faith in that one day we can travel to other stars? Yes, because even that I don't have any proofs for it, yet I believe that we can and will do some day.
    Do I have faith that there miracles exists? No, I don't but others do. There are no first hand observations, nor proofs that miracles ar possible, you need to have faith in that it is possible.

    People tend to use the word 'faith' in a religious way. Okay by me. But I define religion in a way where faith has no meaning.
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