1. Standard memberKellyJay
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    14 Jun '13 09:01
    ?????
  2. Standard memberRajk999
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    14 Jun '13 10:091 edit
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    ?????
    Christ said that in the day of judgment :

    When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? (Matthew 25:31-39 KJV)

    Christ clearly defines who is righteous and who is not. The righteous are those who see Him and help Him in time of need .. feed, clothe, visit etc Him. The unrighteous do not do these things and they are .. cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels .. .

    The unrighteous think they are already saved and eternally saved and they therefore are not inclined to help anyone but bask in their own self-righteousness and arrogance.
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    14 Jun '13 11:02
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    ?????
    God said so!

    Eternal life is a gift to us if we but reach out in faith and take it.

    Only the righteous have eternal life. That righteousness is not our own righteousness, it is the righteousness of Christ. Trusting in what Jesus did on the cross on our behalf is how God is justified in imputing the righteousness of Christ to us.

    So simple even a child can understand.
  4. Standard memberRajk999
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    14 Jun '13 11:17
    Originally posted by josephw
    God said so!

    Eternal life is a gift to us if we but reach out in faith and take it.

    Only the righteous have eternal life. That righteousness is not our own righteousness, it is the righteousness of Christ. Trusting in what Jesus did on the cross on our behalf is how God is justified in imputing the righteousness of Christ to us.

    So simple even a child can understand.
    Not just any kind of faith JosephW, but faith which demonstrates itself by love... chief of which is love for God and love for your neighbour.

    Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

    The Pharisees [like many modern day Christans] claimed to have faith but they had no love.
  5. Dublin Ireland
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    14 Jun '13 11:49
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    ?????
    I'm righteous and you are not
    because my religious has the lot.
    Peace and love and guns as well.
    Enough ammo to send others to hell.

    Think Muslims are bad with bombs and jihad?
    Those who claim to be Christians are just as sad.
    We got Buddhists, Witnesses and Mormons too.
    All of them sending a message to you.

    We are the righteous and they are wrong.
    Everywhere you turn it's the same old song.
    Halleluyah brother, feel the wrath.
    A 50 calibre blocks your path.

    So in conclusion who is right?
    Examine your conscience now this night.
    Before you take any religious instruction,
    better make sure you don't face destruction.
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    14 Jun '13 11:592 edits

    Christ clearly defines who is righteous and who is not. The righteous are those who see Him and help Him in time of need .. feed, clothe, visit etc Him. The unrighteous do not do these things and they are .. cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels .. .

    The unrighteous think they are already saved and eternally saved and they therefore are not inclined to help anyone but bask in their own self-righteousness and arrogance.


    You have no idea at all of what the attitude of the any of the people as to their salvation is concerned. Nothing in the passage indicates anything about how these people of the nations feel about their personal salvation.

    There is nothing said about their attitude about their personal salvation by either the sheep or the goats. So you do not know their feeling about that.

    The only thing you are told is that both groups did not know that their actions or inactions upon a third group of people "the least of these my brothers" were actions or inactions done towards Christ the Son of Man.

    You are told that they were each surprised that "the least of these My brothers" were an extension of the Lord Jesus Himself.

    There are actually three groups mentioned in the teaching rather than two.

    1.) The nations described as sheep.

    2.) The nations described as goats.

    3.) The brothers of the Lord Jesus down to the very least

    The nations or Gentiles (as the word means) are divided up into two groups based upon their actions or inactions toward the third group - the brothers of Christ down to the least.

    Neither the goats or the sheep represent Christians.
    The only group that qualifies to be known as saved Christians is the third - the brothers of Christ down to the least. I believe a remnant of saved Jews is also included in these brothers down to the least.

    The judgment is not based upon the response of Gentile nations to the Gospel of Christ. It is based upon how they HELPED or did not HELP the brothers of Christ even down to the least of them.

    This is the judgment of the living Gentile nations who are left alive on the earth after the great tribulation. It is not the last judgment which we see in Revelation 20.

    This judgment is of the remaining living nations just before the millennial kingdom. Whereas the great white throne judgment, the last judgment, is after the millennial kingdom (see Rev. 20).

    This judgment is of the living people -

    " ... when the Son of Man comes in His glory and all the angels with HIm, at that time He will sit on the throne of His glory.

    And all the nations [gentiles] will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats."


    This is people alive on earth when Jesus sets up His throne of glory in Jerusalem.

    The last judgment in Revelation 20 is of all the dead -

    "And I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose face earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.

    And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by the things which were written in the scrolls, according to their works."(Rev. 20:11,12)


    This is not an exhaustive word on the subject but enough for one post to set the stage right. Matthew 25 is a judgement of living nations who come out of the great tribulation. It is not the final judgment at the end of the Bible which is at the end of the thousand year kingdom.
  7. Standard memberRajk999
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    14 Jun '13 12:09
    Originally posted by sonship
    [quote]
    Christ clearly defines who is righteous and who is not. The righteous are those who see Him and help Him in time of need .. feed, clothe, visit etc Him. The unrighteous do not do these things and they are .. cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels .. .

    The unrighteous think they are already saved and eternally save ...[text shortened]... final judgment at the end of the Bible which is at the end of the thousand year kingdom.
    Jaywill ... here is some friendly advice. Have your head examined.

    Christ said no such thing. Your constant assuming and adding to the words of Christ and removing the value of good works and love and charity in the equation of what gives eternal life puts you and your type squarely in the region of the evil teachers who will be destroyed in the lake of fire.
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    14 Jun '13 13:361 edit

    Jaywill ... here is some friendly advice. Have your head examined.


    That is an insult and not an argument.
    Do you have a argument ?


    Christ said no such thing.


    Said no such thing as what ?

    Christ says in the teaching which He explains will be said by the Son of Man at this judgment from the throne of His glory. These He says are His words:

    verses 34-36,
    verses 40-43,
    verses 45

    So what on earth are you saying was not said by Christ ?
    Please reply in specifics.


    Your constant assuming and adding to the words of Christ


    I refered you to these words of Christ in that passage:

    verses 34-36,
    verses 40-43,
    verses 45


    Please specify the words that I added.


    and removing the value of good works and love and charity


    In this post or any other post specify words I removed from any passage on love or charity. If you cannot demonstrate words I omitted or removed from any New Testament passage then you should retract your accusation.

    I don't need to quote out the entire Matthew 25:32-46. You can read it. And just because I quoted a portion of the 15 verses does not mean I "removed" them from the section.

    Are you thinking clearly? Maybe you should examine the clarity of your thought process.


    in the equation of what gives eternal life puts you and your type squarely in the region of the evil teachers who will be destroyed in the lake of fire.


    Instead of expressing your seething anger at me why not concentrate of the best interpretation of the passage?

    Clearly, kindness showed to the Lord's brothers down to the least of them is central criteria as to who enters into the kingdom millennial kingdom and into eternal life. There is no argument there.

    If you want that debate, that the sheep are not people responding to the Gospel preached by the Christians, the gospel of grace and salvation through faith, you'll have to have that debate with someone who holds that opinion.

    I do not. I have no problem seeing that these sheep and goats are judged on another criteria. See if you can get that into your head when you are conversing with me. I do not speak for anyone else who may have a different view.

    Now, after the rapture of a portion of the Christian church, the age is in transition. And the dispensation of how God will justify the nations remaining on the earth during the great tribulation will be changed.

    Christ always promised that there would be people on earth over whom His people would reign. So there has to be some people over whom Christ and His overcomers will reign. It is not logical that they reign over each other.

    The same is true with His promises to Israel. If she is to be the capital of the nations there must be some nations left after Armegeddon to whom Israel would be such a world center. These sheep nations who enter into the kingdom and enter into eternal life must be those nations. They are transferred from the great tribulation time into the millennial kingdom.

    I will not elaborate completely here. But two characteristics of these nations are:

    1.) They are saved based on their response to "the eternal gospel" preached in Revelation 14:6,7 by the angel. That is a gospel to fear the Creator God. It is not the same as the gospel preached by man during the church age per se.

    2.) They are saved because they were kind the persecuted Christians and Jews under the reign of Antichrist. Remember, those without his mark or his number cannot buy or sell. They will be destitute, refugees, imprisoned, ill-clothed, sick.

    3.) These saved sheep are not born again saved. The eternal life that they enter into is the same everlasting life that Adam was created with which he lost when he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

    Therefore it means that these nations transferred into the kingdom of the millennium will be restored to be in the state that Adam was in when he was first created and was pronounced by God as "very good".

    These are not sons of God. But they do enter into an everlasting life as nations over whom Christ and His co-kings must reign.

    Only this much I write now. Challenge it if you wish. I am ready to defend it.
  9. Standard memberRajk999
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    14 Jun '13 13:38
    Originally posted by sonship

    Jaywill ... here is some friendly advice. Have your head examined.


    That is an insult and not an argument.
    Do you have a argument ?


    Christ said no such thing.


    Said no such thing as what ?

    Christ says in the teaching which He explains will be said by the Son of Man at this judgment from the throne ...[text shortened]... eign.

    Only this much I write now. Challenge it if you wish. I am ready to defend it.
    I dont need an argument. Christ words are crystal clear and requires no interpretation.
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    14 Jun '13 13:411 edit

    I dont need an argument. Christ words are crystal clear and requires no interpretation.

    I take that to mean that probably you cannot carefully defend your interpretation.

    That is up to you. I don't hold that against you unless you childishly condemn mine without being able to show why it is not valid.


    But for the record, this has nothing to do with my devaluating the profit of love, mercy, charity, kindness. Obviously the gospels and the epistles are filled with such exhortations.

    Twisting the passage in some self righteous manner that only you alone care about works of mercy towards others is ridiculous.
  11. Standard memberRajk999
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    14 Jun '13 13:42
    Originally posted by sonship

    I dont need an argument. Christ words are crystal clear and requires no interpretation.


    I take that to mean that probably you cannot carefully defend your interpretation.

    That is up to you. I don't hold that against you unless you childishly condemn mine without being able to show why it is not valid.


    But for the record, this ...[text shortened]... lf righteous manner that only you alone care about works of mercy towards others is ridiculous.
    Your words are not valid because it changes what Christ said.
  12. Standard membersonship
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    14 Jun '13 13:44

    Your words are not valid because it changes what Christ said.


    Please demonstrate how that is so. I'm opened to your critique if you want to be serious.

    HOW have I CHANGED what Christ said there ? Give example.
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    14 Jun '13 13:46
    When is this judgment ? How do we know ?

    Who is at this judgment ? How do we know ?
  14. Standard memberRajk999
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    14 Jun '13 13:48
    Originally posted by sonship

    Your words are not valid because it changes what Christ said.


    Please demonstrate how that is so. I'm opened to your critique if you want to be serious.

    HOW have I CHANGED what Christ said there ? Give example.
    I dont have time for that foolishness.

    Read Matt 25 about what Christ will do when he returns to judge.
    Then read what you wrote and find the differences.
  15. Standard membersonship
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    14 Jun '13 14:021 edit

    I dont have time for that foolishness.


    Rakj999 some of these things TAKE TIME. The Bible is not always easy to really understand well. I have some time so I will help some readers to at least see why I am analyzing that passage as I do.

    I could be wrong. But I have taken a long time already to get into this difficult passage.

    Forums like this attract people like me. People who have taken a long time to study something who want to show some results of the time they put in.

    You do annoy me with your attitude. But if you have some valid problems I am happy to take the time to address them. You do not have to accept my explanations. But you will see I am not without them. And they are good explanations.


    Read Matt 25 about what Christ will do when he returns to judge.
    Then read what you wrote and find the differences.

    Can I at least get out of you that there is more than one judgment of Christ ?

    This judgment in Matthew 25 has to be before the thousand year millennial reign. But the judgment of Revelation is after the thousand year reign.

    This judgment in Matthew 25 appears to be of living people gathered to the throne of Jesus. But the judgment of Revelation 20 is of the dead small and great standing before His throne. Earth and heaven have fled away and they are suspended there in space before the face of God Almighty.

    In this judgment Jesus says for the sheep to "Come" to inherit the kingdom prepared by His Father from the foundation of the world. Something is there of the world for them to enter into.

    The judgment of the great white throne has nothing but the raised dead standing before Christ with heaven and earth vanished, fled away from His face -

    "And I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose face earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them." (20:11)

    Can I get you to at least recognize TWO different judgments in Matthew 25 and Revelation 20 ?

    Yes or No ?
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