Just been reading Genesis

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
what other viable sources of light do you know?

My monitor, a flash light, a fire, what do you want?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
My monitor, a flash light, a fire, what do you want?
Kelly

oh yeah, so like i said, god created a big flashlight in the sky, created batteries for it, and fixed it on something. well he is god i think he could do it.


i am talking about sources of light in space, something that god could have used. something not man made, something that still exist today. unless you advocate the idea that god created something to shine light specifically for those 3 days until he got around to create the sun.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
oh yeah, so like i said, god created a big flashlight in the sky, created batteries for it, and fixed it on something. well he is god i think he could do it.


i am talking about sources of light in space, something that god could have used. something not man made, something that still exist today. unless you advocate the idea that god created something to shine light specifically for those 3 days until he got around to create the sun.

Again, God being the source of all things, why do you think it is
a leap to have Him make light without stars? Stars are just a
'source' of light, like I said there are many. Light is an outcome
of a reactions like those that take place in stars, or monitors, or
fire, or any number of things. It is not different than creating
heat before fire.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Again, God being the source of all things, why do you think it is
a leap to have Him make light without stars? Stars are just a
'source' of light, like I said there are many. Light is an outcome
of a reactions like those that take place in stars, or monitors, or
fire, or any number of things. It is not different than creating
heat before fire.
Kelly

so the reason god created a source of light before creating the real source of light(the one which will shine light on the universe for all time, but the first 3 days) would be?

if i hear "god works in mysterious ways" i might have a stroke so please don't tell me that.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
so the reason god created a source of light before creating the real source of light(the one which will shine light on the universe for all time, but the first 3 days) would be?

if i hear "god works in mysterious ways" i might have a stroke so please don't tell me that.

I do not know the reason why He did it the way He did, I cannot
speak to that. All I know is what it says, I can guess, but that would
be just a guess.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I do not know the reason why He did it the way He did, I cannot
speak to that. All I know is what it says, I can guess, but that would
be just a guess.
Kelly

all you know is what moses wrote(maybe it was him) about what happened, and that he claimed god confided this story in him.

all you know is what a story about 4000 old is telling you. about the nature of the universe. a story coming from a time where nobody understood physics and laws of the universe. from a time where the sun was just a ball of fire moving around a table-like earth resting on a tower of turtles.

and now that we find new ideas to explain how the earth was created you still cling to a story that people 4000 years ago claimed it was given to them by god.

you say you don't know the reason. did you ever tried to find it out? or is it that what the bible says is suficient to you. and if the latter is true, how do you differentiate between what to believe in the bible and what to not believe. do you believe that the great flood created the grand canyon and not a single other grand canyon anywhere in the world? and if so, why don't you believe that a woman should be stoned to death for infidelity?

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
all you know is what moses wrote(maybe it was him) about what happened, and that he claimed god confided this story in him.

all you know is what a story about 4000 old is telling you. about the nature of the universe. a story coming from a time where nobody understood physics and laws of the universe. from a time where the sun was just a ball of fire mov ...[text shortened]... world? and if so, why don't you believe that a woman should be stoned to death for infidelity?

I'm sure God confided much of what Mose' wrote. Man's understanding
of physics doe not help him understand 'in the beginning God...' it will
add nothing to that. New ideas about what occured are only good if
they actually reflect what occurred, changing a story to something new
does not mean it is better if it does not reflect what actually occurred,
which is the long way of saying simply being a new thought or story
does not make it correct.

You asked me why God did something, I said I didn't know, maybe
you were asking something else, but why God did anything means
I have to know the intent of God in His work, which is the why. Besides
having a Mose's like discussion with God over that topic, I fail to see
how I can "find out" why God did something.

I do not know how the grand canyon came to be, and there are other
grand canyons in the world too.

What does a woman being stoned to death have to do with this topic?
Kelly

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
oh yeah, so like i said, god created a big flashlight in the sky, created batteries for it, and fixed it on something. well he is god i think he could do it.


i am talking about sources of light in space, something that god could have used. something not man made, something that still exist today. unless you advocate the idea that god created something to shine light specifically for those 3 days until he got around to create the sun.

I think I would have to side with Kelly on this one.
If God creates a vast empty universe, there is nothing wrong with him filling it with random photos (rather like the background radiation which we do actually see). He may later have realized that that would not be sufficient for illuminating his favorite planet and then created the sun and stars, though it is clearly far more complex than that.
1. Light is merely a tiny subset of radio-magnetic radiation.
2. The Sun and other stars have far more effect on the universe than being mere light sources.
3. There is no reason to think that God did not plan his 7 day work schedule ahead of time.
4. One wonders what the Hebrew words used meant and how God could have described what he did in more detail without inadvertently giving away some scientific secrets that he may have not wanted humans to know about 4000 years ago.

That brings me to the question of whether a text the size of the Bible can possibly hold important meaning in every verse which is relevant to every person who reads it over a 4000 year period.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm sure God confided much of what Mose' wrote. Man's understanding
of physics doe not help him understand 'in the beginning God...' it will
add nothing to that. New ideas about what occured are only good if
they actually reflect what occurred, changing a story to something new
does not mean it is better if it does not reflect what actually occurred,
w ...[text shortened]... orld too.

What does a woman being stoned to death have to do with this topic?
Kelly

a woman being stoned to death is relevant to the fact that you choose to blindly believe something in the bible, yet you dismiss other issues. how do you distinguish the schizophrenic people from the ones that actually talk to god? if i claim god made the first model of earth on the back a pink fluffy will you believe me or dismiss me as a lunatic? yet if moses tells you god made a thing that gives light(actually moses just says light existed, doesn't says what causes it) was created for three days, and after that suns appeared replacing the mysterious light thingie you choose to believe him. why do you think he talked to god and not me?


don't you understand that by your logic, god could have done anything "in the beginning" ?

he literally could have designed an office complete with mahogany desks, and a lamp(let there be light means turn on the lamp and let's get to work.) he could have made the world out of clay and placed it on the desk. maybe the lamp shining the first light was pink. maybe the earth was shaped like a plate. maybe, like last thursdayism says, the world was really created last thursday.

we can make all kind of theories, the tricky part is when we try and prove them. and just because a book says one of these outlandish theories is right, doesn't mean anything because it doesn't explain the how. doesn't give rational explanations as to why would god create the world in such a fashion, replacing concepts, adjusting laws, and then finally settling on a model (the one in genesis), but not before he put stuff in the universe that contradicts with that model just to mess with us and lead us into temptation. Again i ask you why would god do that?

My biggest complaint about creationism when it comes to Young Earth Creationism is that there is such a vast amount of evidence pointing to an old universe, and some of it is so very specific, that it seems rather odd for God to essentially leave masses of clues and evidence pointing to what didn't happen while simultaneously letting us in on the secret of what did happen via some anonymous writer 4000 years ago.
For example, the vast majority of 'known stars' in the universe are will over 10,000 light years away, so the light that appears to be coming from them must have been created in transit with the appearance that it came from stars that didn't exist. If God went to all that trouble, we should actually have serious doubts as to whether any star other than our sun exists, as he could quite easily be creating the light from stars in an ongoing fashion, and we have no independent method of verifying their existence. If we are to trust our instruments that one star exists, we should trust them regarding the age of the universe, as the evidence is the same.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I think I would have to side with Kelly on this one.
If God creates a vast empty universe, there is nothing wrong with him filling it with random photos (rather like the background radiation which we do actually see). He may later have realized that that would not be sufficient for illuminating his favorite planet and then created the sun and stars, thou ...[text shortened]... t meaning in every verse which is relevant to every person who reads it over a 4000 year period.

you are forcing it. kinda like i was forcing philosophy out of the adam story.

if god can do anything, why create something that will be adjusted later. what would be the point? he creates light as random photons and then decides it is not enough so he tweaks the model. where is this 7 days work schedule coming into play? "create stuff, adjust stuff and replace stuff"

there was day and night, background radiation means coming from all directions and illuminating the favorite rock equally. unless god used special blankies to cover parts of the world.

do you enjoy contradicting me? do you do it on purpose? i am perhaps being paranoid, i am sure you agreed with me at least one time in the past.

Originally posted by twhitehead
My biggest complaint about creationism when it comes to Young Earth Creationism is that there is such a vast amount of evidence pointing to an old universe, and some of it is so very specific, that it seems rather odd for God to essentially leave masses of clues and evidence pointing to what didn't happen while simultaneously letting us in on the secret o ...[text shortened]... exists, we should trust them regarding the age of the universe, as the evidence is the same.

god could really have created the world as a flat plate resting on an infinite tower of turtles and all the astronauts and the scientists that proved the earth was round were all tricked by satan into heresy.

all the rocks on the earth only appear to be 4 billion years old, in fact they were created 6000 years ago(or last thursday) with the appearance of being old and venerable.

we could all be in the matrix.

what is your point? if we try and do science this way, we would never accomplish anything.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
a woman being stoned to death is relevant to the fact that you choose to blindly believe something in the bible, yet you dismiss other issues. how do you distinguish the schizophrenic people from the ones that actually talk to god? if i claim god made the first model of earth on the back a pink fluffy will you believe me or dismiss me as a lunatic? yet if m ...[text shortened]... ust to mess with us and lead us into temptation. Again i ask you why would god do that?

I tell you what I'll discuss any scripture with you if you quote it in
context. We can than discuss the value of the text and the meaning
behind it. Speaking about something in scripture without giving the
context and background at times and so forth can lead to some
strange ideas about somethings that in context may or may not be
that bad. Otherwise it is like the statement "separation of church
and state" as being part of the constitution, those words are not
in the constitution so if you cannot put it into context you can apply
any meaning you want to them.
Kelly

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
a woman being stoned to death is relevant to the fact that you choose to blindly believe something in the bible, yet you dismiss other issues. how do you distinguish the schizophrenic people from the ones that actually talk to god? if i claim god made the first model of earth on the back a pink fluffy will you believe me or dismiss me as a lunatic? yet if m ...[text shortened]... ust to mess with us and lead us into temptation. Again i ask you why would god do that?

Yea, I understand God could have done anything, you have a plan of
action God wouild have had to work from because you know the power
and scope of God? It is limited to the things that are written as far as
we know. There are boundaries given in creation that I'm quite sure
the people of the day wouldn't have known why or how they were kept
but modern science does, like life having children after their own kinds.
Kelly

Originally posted by twhitehead
My biggest complaint about creationism when it comes to Young Earth Creationism is that there is such a vast amount of evidence pointing to an old universe, and some of it is so very specific, that it seems rather odd for God to essentially leave masses of clues and evidence pointing to what didn't happen while simultaneously letting us in on the secret o exists, we should trust them regarding the age of the universe, as the evidence is the same.

For the sake of arguement, if God did everything in the scripture as it
was shared, would it really matter how it looks to us? Think about that
for a second, He says this is what I did, we look at it and say no you
didn't, would God be overly concern about that? If you can point to
a part of the creation story like where life has boundaries about
pro-creation within life. Where Mose was given rules about health if
those rules were really bad for the human race that too would be
something that would bring a valid concern, because if God designed
us and couldn't get health issues correct that we know are true, we
would have a problem.

With respect to how far away stars are, tell me when God created the
stars did he do it in such away that man could see them as soon as
God made them?
Kelly