Misguided Belief

Originally posted by Agerg
Yeah but no God stepped into to help them, so present or not we can say that any prayers they didn't burn alive or get crushed as the buildings collapsed or spared by a fortuitous landing as they jumped were not answered in their favour.

I think it's pretty low to use the 9-11 attacks as 'so-called' proof that prayer does not work. I also believe it's not too well thought out speaking about a topic you know nothing about. You were not there, so you can assume all you want and still prove nothing.

We all have to die at some point. The question is merely how. I'm not going to sit here and try and talk about something I wasn't there to experience (like your doing).

This is a sad topic for me since I knew some people that worked in that area. I am ex military myself and would prefer not speaking about this subject. Not only does this prove nothing and does not help your case, it's an ugly subject.

Originally posted by gtbiking4life
I think it's pretty low to use the 9-11 attacks as 'so-called' proof that prayer does not work. I also believe it's not too well thought out speaking about a topic you know nothing about. You were not there, so you can assume all you want and still prove nothing.

We all have to die at some point. The question is merely how. I'm not going to sit here ject. Not only does this prove nothing and does not help your case, it's an ugly subject.

Well my apologies for offending you (not my intent) but I always feel it important to counter assertions backed up by happy examples with challenges to it via horrible examples. Like when someone says something like "the earth is beautiful therefore God exists" I'm drawn to mentioning not so beautiful things like decaying road kill, plagues, excrement, tortures and murders etc...

Thats partly the reason I'm an atheist...I can see good in the world, but I can also see the bad in it as well. The God you or most other theists propose is wildly implausible. Absense of valid evidence is the major factor though.

Originally posted by Agerg
Well my apologies for offending you (not my intent) but I always feel it important to counter assertions backed up by happy examples with challenges to it via horrible examples. Like when someone says something like "the earth is beautiful therefore God exists" I'm drawn to mentioning not so beautiful things like decaying road kill, plagues, excrement, torture ...[text shortened]... theists propose is wildly implausible. Absense of valid evidence is the major factor though.

No problem. I realize bad things happen in this world. This is not proof God does not exist, at least for me. I used to be Agnostic when I was in my teens and early 20s. I decided to become baptized at 23. It has been 20 years since then and with every prayer, with every experience I have in my life, every time I show love to my wife, my son, my family, my neighbor, and anyone else I come in contact with on a daily basis, my testimony grows each day.

Originally posted by gtbiking4life
No problem. I realize bad things happen in this world. This is not proof God does not exist, at least for me. I used to be Agnostic when I was in my teens and early 20s. I decided to become baptized at 23. It has been 20 years since then and with every prayer, with every experience I have in my life, every time I show love to my wife, my son, my family ...[text shortened]... neighbor, and anyone else I come in contact with on a daily basis, my testimony grows each day.

All I've been trying to argue is that "answered prayers" can be explained away by virtue of the sheer number of people that practice prayer regularly (that are not answered as they hope) in the first place. Round up a statistically significant number of people that can demonstrate they have had the same good fortune as yourself and I'm all ears, otherwise I put it down to random chance.

Originally posted by gtbiking4life
It depends on what you believe reliable is I suppose. Just one example – what are the chances the puppies shoulder would have healed by itself that quickly?

Its totally irrelevant. You seem to fail to realize that your explanation for the working of prayer negates the possibility that the puppy healing can be taken as positive evidence for the power or prayer.

Your argument was that when you pray, God does something that is in your best interests, regardless of whether you know it is in your best interests. More importantly, you don't always know what is in your best interests.
So, if the puppies healing was statistically improbable, we still don't know whether it was in your best interests, so we cannot take it as evidence for the power of prayer.

Prayer has worked similar in my life. This is much more than what a coin could have accomplished. Due to my experiences, I have a personal testimony that prayer has worked and a coin flip would in no way have had the same result. It’s fine if you don’t believe, but I do.
It only appears to have worked because you are clearly using flawed logic to justify your beliefs. I can assure you that with that flawed logic, a coin flip would be just as effective, because it is the flaws in the logic that are responsible for your belief not the actual events.

I am sure you can list hundreds of feel good stories where you prayed and soon after something you judge to be positive happened. I am sure that if you thought hard enough you could list some stories where something you would normally have judged to be negative happened, but you can justify them as being best for you in the long run.
However, overall, are you better off that I am, having also experienced hundreds of positive and negative experiences without the use of prayer? How do you measure you success or my success? Is your health above average? Is your wealth above average? What do you believe can be used to measure your benefit from prayer?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Its totally irrelevant. You seem to fail to realize that your explanation for the working of prayer negates the possibility that the puppy healing can be taken as positive evidence for the power or prayer.

Your argument was that when you pray, God does something that is in your best interests, regardless of whether you know it is in your best interests ...[text shortened]... our wealth above average? What do you believe can be used to measure your benefit from prayer?

In other words, you don't know if it was prayer that worked or not is what I gather you are saying. There are things that has happened in my life which could not be explained logically. You also have no evidence whatsoever that prayer did not work. Since you are not the one who experienced what I have in my life, how can you possibly know except by using assumptions on what you think?

To me you have offered nothing by assumptions which is no proof at all and I also realize I offered no evidence to you. I'm fine with that. I strongly believe in prayer, I believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. This is my belief and have seen nothing to lead me to believe otherwise.

Keep in mind, since you have not had the same experiences I have had in my life, your logic is flawed. You can not possibly know and can only make blind assumptions on what may have happened. Your whole debate seems to resolve around "I don't know, therefore prayer did not work". This is flawed logic.

Am I better off than you? That is irrelevant to the discussion. Who decides who is better? My personal belief is that neither of use are. I may be better at doing certain things and you are better at doing certain things. This is not a logical question to ask in my opinion and fails.

Do you have any evidence that says prayer did not work? or would you just admit you really do not know? Show me the evidence than now the shoes on the other foot. Show me the the evidence that prayer had nothing to do with the puppy's shoulder healing on its own.

Originally posted by Agerg
All I've been trying to argue is that "answered prayers" can be explained away by virtue of the sheer number of people that practice prayer regularly (that are not answered as they hope) in the first place. Round up a statistically significant number of people that can demonstrate they have had the same good fortune as yourself and I'm all ears, otherwise I put it down to random chance.

Well - you can put it down to random chance. I'm good with that.

Originally posted by gtbiking4life
In other words, you don't know if it was prayer that worked or not is what I gather you are saying.

I am saying more than that. I am saying that you too do not know if it was prayer that worked, and that you have offered no way to make any such measurement. You claim to know by intuition, but by no other measurable means.

There are things that has happened in my life which could not be explained logically.
Or so you wish to believe. Yet I am sure that with enough information, they could all be explained logically. Further, I don't see why prayers being answered would be the best explanation even if you failed to find another logical explanation. Oddly enough, your statement implies that answered prayers is an illogical explanation.

You also have no evidence whatsoever that prayer did not work.
I have fairly good evidence that they are not particularly effective. I do not see a significant difference between the lives of those who pray and those who don't by any measure I can think of (health, wealth, happiness). That surely is very good evidence that prayer does not do very much.

To me you have offered nothing by assumptions which is no proof at all and I also realize I offered no evidence to you. I'm fine with that. I strongly believe in prayer, I believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. This is my belief and have seen nothing to lead me to believe otherwise.
And I recognize that belief. All I am arguing is that you are incorrectly attributing that belief to logical deduction from experience when in reality it has more to do with illogical deduction and your religion. You have not presented any logical reason for believing that prayer works.

Am I better off than you? That is irrelevant to the discussion.
It is entirely relevant because you specifically said that the result of prayer was to make you better off in some way. How else can you claim that 'prayer works'? Are you saying that if you did not pray, you would be significantly worse off than me? That you are naturally unlucky and prayer only brings you back to my level? Of course its relevant.

Do you have any evidence that says prayer did not work? or would you just admit you really do not know? Show me the evidence than now the shoes on the other foot. Show me the the evidence that prayer had nothing to do with the puppy's shoulder healing on its own.
See my evidence above.
Do your dogs have a measurably longer life expectancy or higher level of health than the average dog? Do dogs whose owners pray have a higher life expectancy? If they don't then that is evidence that prayer has no measurable effect. One feel good story tells us nothing. It tells both of us nothing. Not me, not you.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I am saying more than that. I am saying that you too do not know if it was prayer that worked, and that you have offered no way to make any such measurement. You claim to know by intuition, but by no other measurable means.

[b]There are things that has happened in my life which could not be explained logically.
Or so you wish to believe. Yet I am ...[text shortened]... fect. One feel good story tells us nothing. It tells both of us nothing. Not me, not you.[/b]

"I am saying more than that. I am saying that you too do not know if it was prayer that worked, and that you have offered no way to make any such measurement. You claim to know by intuition, but by no other measurable means."

I am mentioning what I believe and also mentioned this is not proof or evidence for you. I'm not sure how much more clear I can be on this. I believe prayer works. All you have is no evidence as well.

"Or so you wish to believe. Yet I am sure that with enough information, they could all be explained logically. Further, I don't see why prayers being answered would be the best explanation even if you failed to find another logical explanation. Oddly enough, your statement implies that answered prayers is an illogical explanation."

Or so you wish to believe with enough information they could be explained. What is wrong with what I implied. I believe the prayers have worked in my life. Does this have to have a logical explanation. I can not explain logically why the puppy's shoulder healed on it's own. All I know is that it did.

"I have fairly good evidence that they are not particularly effective. I do not see a significant difference between the lives of those who pray and those who don't by any measure I can think of (health, wealth, happiness). That surely is very good evidence that prayer does not do very much."

No you have no evidence. In order for you to prove to me prayers had no effect in my life, you would have to look at my life and have experienced what I have experienced. You have no evidence I'm afraid. For me, since prayer has worked more times (much more than 50% - coin flip) that is enough evidence for me. You still have no evidence how the puppy's should healed on it's own that quickly. So I'll take that as a 'no' you have no evidence prayer did not work.

"And I recognize that belief. All I am arguing is that you are incorrectly attributing that belief to logical deduction from experience when in reality it has more to do with illogical deduction and your religion. You have not presented any logical reason for believing that prayer works."

And you have presented no logically explanation how prayer did not work. Your working on blind assumptions.

"It is entirely relevant because you specifically said that the result of prayer was to make you better off in some way. How else can you claim that 'prayer works'? Are you saying that if you did not pray, you would be significantly worse off than me? That you are naturally unlucky and prayer only brings you back to my level? Of course its relevant."

I never said anyone is better than someone else. I never even came close to mentioning 'your' level. In fact I mentioned we have different experiences and neither are better than the other. Your making assumptions again on what I believe which are way off the mark. Would my family be worse off now if the puppy's shoulder did not heal? I believe prayer had worked for the best. This is not saying I am better than you or would bring me back down to your level (whatever that is). What does your level (as you put it) have anything to do with my life?

"Do your dogs have a measurably longer life expectancy or higher level of health than the average dog? Do dogs whose owners pray have a higher life expectancy? If they don't then that is evidence that prayer has no measurable effect. One feel good story tells us nothing. It tells both of us nothing. Not me, not you."

Thank you for not answering the question. There is no evidence above to see. A puppy's shoulder healing on it's own does not say anything about life expectancy. You are grasping at straws to bring about evidence which does not even exist.

Originally posted by twhitehead
1. If prayers are responded to with the results requested for then it would be obvious ie the results will be obtained.
2. If however prayers are responded to by not giving the result requested but rather doing whats best for the person praying or prayed for, then I really cant say what to expect, as 'what is best' seems not to be defined in any meaningf ...[text shortened]... who don't, or those who pray to the Christian God as opposed to those who pray to Allah.

My kids come to me with requests, they get a yes answer sometimes and a no
answer others does that mean that coming to Dad is not obvious due to the
fact the results are alway not what they want when they want it? I think the
whole notion here is those asking to see prayers answer are really asking to see
God do what someone wants when they want it. I doubt God ever concerns
Himself with such requests and prayers asked for as a side show for such things
are not really being asked by those with a good intent in my opinion.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
My kids come to me with requests, they get a yes answer sometimes and a no
answer others does that mean that coming to Dad is not obvious due to the
fact the results are alway not what they want when they want it?

I think that it should be relatively easy to distinguish between a child with parents and a child with no parents or other care giver.
If your son sometimes gets what he wants and other times gets what is best for him, in both cases, if the request is answered by anything other than pure randomness, then we would expect to see some overall benefit to your son when comparing him to a child that never asks for anything - or receives anything.
Unless you are claiming that God helps those who don't pray just as much as those who do.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I think that it should be relatively easy to distinguish between a child with parents and a child with no parents or other care giver.
If your son sometimes gets what he wants and other times gets what is best for him, in both cases, if the request is answered by anything other than pure randomness, then we would expect to see some overall benefit to you ...[text shortened]... ing.
Unless you are claiming that God helps those who don't pray just as much as those who do.

Yea, he does help those that do not pray to Him, since He holds all of creation
together by the power of His Word He is doing quite a bit for even those that
do indeed not pray to Him and hate Him as well.

I'm sure going by answers to requests seems easy, because we see the Father
son or the daughter; however, if all you saw were requests and something either
happening or not happening towards that request, you'd be left with what we
have now with God it seems.

I would still stress if all you want is side show for your delight you will be left
wanting a long time.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Yea, he does help those that do not pray to Him, since He holds all of creation
together by the power of His Word He is doing quite a bit for even those that
do indeed not pray to Him and hate Him as well.

The question was not whether he helps them at all, but whether he helps them as much as he helps those who pray.
What we are trying to determine here is whether or not praying has any noticeable effect. ie whether praying results in God helping you more than he would if you did not pray.

I would still stress if all you want is side show for your delight you will be left
wanting a long time.
The reason for wanting the evidence is irrelevant. If I will be left wanting after asking for evidence then there is no evidence and the phenomena does not exist. If the answers to prayer can only be seen when in a certain psychological state (ie someone who doesn't want a side show), then the phenomena itself is a psychological illusion and not a real effect.

Originally posted by twhitehead
The question was not whether he helps them at all, but whether he helps them as much as he helps those who pray.
What we are trying to determine here is whether or not praying has any noticeable effect. ie whether praying results in God helping you more than he would if you did not pray.

[b]I would still stress if all you want is side show for your de want a side show), then the phenomena itself is a psychological illusion and not a real effect.

[/b]Yes, He does help differently those that belong to Him than those that do not, for
one He enters into our lives to the point our bodies become temples for God. From
that point on nothing in our lives can separate is from the love of God, I don't care
what power comes into play against us, or what happens to us, or our loved ones.
Once we have that relationship with God, God works all things together for our
good.

If you are asking can and do things occur that happen to those who pray, that
could just as easy happen to those who don't pray? I'd say yes for the most part
He just does not work out things for the good that are not in a right relationship
with God their end will be completely different. Those not in a right relationship
with God may suffer and delight in the things of this earth equally with those that
do belong to God, but the end results will not be the same even though the events
maybe the same.
Kelly