Ping -pong

Originally posted by vishvahetu
Dishonesty comes in many forms and disguises.

Since we are talking about the existence of life......persons who just out of thin air without proof or evidence, saying life is a random accident, without intelligent design or cause, is dishonest.

Everywhere in this world you will see intelligence behind stuff.

Look at your TV....someone intelligent ...[text shortened]... honest persons, because they just invent comments from thin air, to support their nonsense talk.

If you can't discuss things with dishonest people why do you continue to post here?
So if I say I can not agree there is or is not a god, that is to say, I cannot deny the existence of a god nor can I deny the non-existence of a god so that makes me dishonest? I am deliberately lying about that stance? That my stance is religious people are living a life of fantasy and obsessed with the wrong things in life rather than just living, I am being dishonest? How do you arrive at that conclusion? Because your 'spirituality' is so superior to anyone else you are the ultimate authority on the subject? Could it not be instead you are simply deluded and also duped just like everyone else on the planet claiming to know what real spirituality is?

Originally posted by John W Booth
But we are talking about beliefs - competing beliefs, if you want. Yours and those of others.

You seriously intend to go on calling people, whose beliefs differ from yours, 'liars'? You are accusing them of actually sharing your beliefs but then lying about it when they say they have different beliefs?

This is the spirituality forum, and one thing that must be upheld is honesty.

I have had raging debates, because people believe that killing animals and eating its rotting flesh, is sanctioned by God.....this is dishonesty, and has nothing to do with respecting that belief.

I have had debates by persons saying that (dull dead matter ) can arrange itself into complex , functioning, meaningful forms, without the aid of the intelligence factor.........this is dishonesty and has nothing to do with respecting that belief.

I have had debates with persons saying, the eternal spiritual soul can actually die....this is dishonesty and has nothing to do with respecting that belief.

If I said I could jump of my roof and fly like a rocket, I would expect everyone to call me dishonest.......should they respect my assumption or call me dishonest.

You seem to think that labeling someone dishonest, for their dishonest comments is very bad.

If someone said Iam dishonest for saying I could fly like a rocket....are they a bad person.

You are offended by me presenting truth.....this is odd.

.

Originally posted by sonhouse
If you can't discuss things with dishonest people why do you continue to post here?
So if I say I can not agree there is or is not a god, that is to say, I cannot deny the existence of a god nor can I deny the non-existence of a god so that makes me dishonest? I am deliberately lying about that stance? That my stance is religious people are living a life o ...[text shortened]... also duped just like everyone else on the planet claiming to know what real spirituality is?

If there is no God....there is no intelligence or creative force.

Without intelligence or creative force, there is no cosmos and everything in it..

If you say the cosmos and everything in it, came about without intelligence or creative force, then you are dishonest, because you know that the cosmos could never exist without the intelligent directive.

That is your dishonesty.

A liar is one who speaks an untruth and knows it is not true.
Misinformed is better word Vishy. I differ from Islam, Jews and all other religions other than Christians, but that doesn't make any of us liars.
A person who speaks from the heart, is NEVER dishonest, no matter how wrong we may think they are.

Food for thought.

Originally posted by vishvahetu
You seem to think that labeling someone dishonest, for their dishonest comments is very bad.

You are incorrectly referring to 'disagreement' as 'dishonesty'. You have done it again and again and again. These words have conventional meanings that you are ignoring. Your error has been pointed out to you by several members of this community. And yet you persist.

Originally posted by ChessPraxis
A liar is one who speaks an untruth and knows it is not true.
Misinformed is better word Vishy. I differ from Islam, Jews and all other religions other than Christians, but that doesn't make any of us liars.
A person who speaks from the heart, is NEVER dishonest, no matter how wrong we may think they are.

Food for thought.

What you say is spot on......but

Do you really think people are speaking from the heart, when they say that the cosmos just happened without intelligent direction.

Say that right now out loud, say "The cosmos and everything in it,came about without any intelligent directive, but just happened"

Its impossible to say...right?

I dont think its possible to make such a statement and believe it.....unless the person is lending themselves to dishonesty.

To actually be honest, they should say...."I dont know how its all taking place"

That would be an honest statement.

But to stand on a soap box, and to pronounce loudly to the world, that there is no intelligent directive, to the workings of the cosmos....well see what i am saying.

When one does admit that the cosmos has intelligence behind it.....then the next question is: What is that intelligence? and what is its nature? and what is its cause?...then you are approaching the God factor.

And then the Vedas answer these questions in detail.

And the Vedas are eternal, and are presented by that intelligence we speak of....in other words, the intelligence behind everything has given mankind knowledge of its nature, and of life, death, purpose, meaning, existence, how, why, when and so on, but the main information that the Vedas present, is how to get out of this world of suffering for ever, and return to our eternal spiritual home of bliss, happiness and peace.

But before you go off and Google the Vedas, there are many unscrupulous translations and commentaries that are not authorized.....and you must know where to find the bonafide presentations, by the authorized pure masters.

Originally posted by John W Booth
You are incorrectly referring to 'disagreement' as 'dishonesty'. You have done it again and again and again. These words have conventional meanings that you are ignoring. Your error has been pointed out to you by several members of this community. And yet you persist.

Why be stubborn......disagreeing with truth is dishonesty.

You want me to respect untruth.....I will not.

Originally posted by vishvahetu
Disagreeing with truth is dishonesty.

It is not, vishvahetu. You are not asserting 'truth'. You are offering conjecture about it, your own personal subjective certainty notwithstanding. What is being discussed - and asserted - here is belief and beliefs, surmise and speculation. You need to look at the definitions of the words 'disagree' and 'dishonesty' and adjust your way of expressing yourself because it will continue to be alienating and risible, and therefore counter-productive, as long as it is riddled with these errors of vocabulary and confusion about conventional meanings.

Originally posted by vishvahetu
You want me to respect untruth.....I will not.

I will settle for you respecting fellow posters and respecting the English language.

Originally posted by John W Booth
It is not, vishvahetu. You are not asserting 'truth'. You are offering conjecture about it, your own personal subjective certainty notwithstanding. What is being discussed - and asserted - here is belief and beliefs, surmise and speculation. You need to look at the definitions of the words 'disagree' and 'dishonesty' and adjust your way of expressing yo ...[text shortened]... s it is riddled with these errors of vocabulary and confusion about conventional meanings.

You are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

I express myself clear enough for honest people to understand.

Honesty is presenting the truth.

Dishonesty is denying the truth.

Wisdom is knowing what is truth and untruth.

Wisdom comes from following the spiritual life, for purification of the mind, heart and senses.

If you do not choose to live the spiritual life, then you will remain un-purified.

Being un-purified will prevent any knowledge becoming realized.

If you are faining misunderstanding, its because there is some dishonesty in your heart.

I present truth....truth given to me by the wisdom of the Vedas which are the authority.

You cannot reject the authority of the Vedas, unless you study them with seriousness for some time......because the Vedas will clearly reveal themselves to you, after which you may make an informed decision.

But before making your decision, you would have to practice the prescribed method of raising your consciousness to the transcendental platform.

At the moment your consciousness is on the mundane platform, and you do not have any spiritual insight.

If you dont follow the recommended process of purification, then you will not be qualified to comment........because the knowledge must be realized and taken into the heart for it to be affective.

You and others like you are your own worst enemy, because you push away the very thing that will perfect your life......self knowledge and knowledge of God.

You are offended that I can call someone dishonest.....but for people to accept absurd beliefs, on a whim is dishonest.

If I ask someone, Why do they say that the cosmos has no intelligent directive....they say because its what I believe....so that is baseless and absurd, and you want me to respect that stand........I will not.

Lets forget God and religion all together......and ask the same question;

Does the cosmos and everything in it, come about randomly without an intelligent directive....the answer is no.

But dishonest persons will say yes.....because they are foolish.

Originally posted by vishvahetu
I express myself clear enough for honest people to understand.

Honesty is presenting the truth.

Dishonesty is denying the truth.

Wisdom is knowing what is truth and untruth.

Wisdom comes from following the spiritual life, for purification of the mind, heart and senses.[...]

But dishonest persons will say yes.....because they are foolish.

You're still mixing up 'truth' and 'belief' and 'disagreement' and 'dishonesty. This makes you come across as rather lacking in common decency and somewhat cretinous too. You do a great disservice to your belief system. I'd venture to bet that interest in and respect for the Vedas has decreased on this forum since you started posting. Perhaps you don't care if your rather silly confrontational 'style' discredits the spiritual beliefs and traditions you speak of, but if that is the case, and you in fact do not care, then maybe you need to look up the word 'vanity' in the dictionary too.

Originally posted by John W Booth
You're still mixing up 'truth' and 'belief' and 'disagreement' and 'dishonesty. This makes you come across as rather lacking in common decency and somewhat cretinous too. You do a great disservice to your belief system. I'd venture to bet that interest in and respect for the Vedas has decreased on this forum since you started posting. Perhaps you don't ...[text shortened]... not care, then maybe you need to look up the word 'vanity' in the dictionary too.

There you have it right there...you still want confrontation, because your feathers have been ruffled.

How have they been ruffled.

There ruffled because you cant stand someone, exposing all the nonsense.

Maybe you are part of that nonsense.....because you either subscribe to the absurd belief that the cosmos and everything in it, all came about without an intelligent directive.

or

You are subscribing to false religion, and the absurd teachings which says that slaughtering animals and eating them is lovingly accepted by God, and that you only have one life to choose between eternal damnation or heaven.

You have stated you are a theist, but after that it goes all blurry...

I have no idea what you are really in disagreement about.

You say I dont use the word dishonest properly, but I have said that dishonesty is rejecting truth, and the persons who I have said are dishonest have done this....and I am informing them that a discussion about spirituality is fruitless, while they remain dishonest.

Originally posted by vishvahetu
You say I dont use the word dishonest properly, but I have said that dishonesty is rejecting truth, and the persons who I have said are dishonest have done this.

On the contrary, as far as can be seen, their's is an honest disagreement with you. They don't agree with your beliefs. 'Disagreement' and 'dishonesty' are not synonymous. The way you confuse your terminology makes you come across as incoherent.

Originally posted by vishvahetu
There you have it right there...you still want confrontation, because your feathers have been ruffled.

On the contrary, vishvahetu. If you will read my actual words once again you will see that I am in fact urging you to adjust your confrontational style. Your deliberate mixing up the words 'truth' and 'belief' and then calling anyone who disagrees with you a liar or "mad" is a confrontational style that is doing you and your belief system a disservice in this online community.

Originally posted by vishvahetu
the absurd teachings which says that slaughtering animals and eating them is lovingly accepted by God

If a fellow poster, whose belief system and/or God did not preclude eating meat, told you that he or she believed that your 'to say slaughtering animals and eating them is lovingly accepted by God is absurd' assertion was absurd, would they be lying?