PM from KOP 2

Originally posted by SwissGambit
That's generally what it's called when one (or more) people take a position, like "faith is a choice", and then another person (or more) reply, "no, it isn't" and they discuss the issue. A debate.

Though in this case, not one that will go anywhere. Oh well. Can't hurt to try. They can't all be good.

Comedic character caricaturizing caused me to wonder if you had lost your cool. lol

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Comedic character caricaturizing caused me to wonder if you had lost your cool. lol

I actually laughed quite a bit over it. 🙂

Originally posted by SwissGambit
I actually laughed quite a bit over it. 🙂

Do you have a favorite?

Originally posted by Rajk999
KOP's question #2:

Secondly, please show one scripture in context that tells a person who believes in Christ Jesus for his salvation will not be given eternal life.

Answer :

There are several but here are just 2

[i]Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Fat ...[text shortened]... rks.

James is also very clear [b] faith without works is dead .. no explanation required.[/b]

James is speaking of faith in general. The fallen angels or demons , as james points out, apparently believed in the existence of the one God, but they put their faith in Satan instead. This is false faith. That kind of faith that is without good works is dead. The demons can not do pleasing works to God because their faith is in the wrong thing. James believed that the good works he did showed that he had true faith.

Paul was speaking of true faith in Jesus as our Lord and Savior. Only the persons having this kind of faith can please God by doing good works. But we are saved by faith, not works, so nobody can boast. But after being saved by the grace of God through our faith, we will be rewarded in heaven based on our good works.

Keepers of the Law of God. . .

King James Version
======================
I John 2: 21-26
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

I John 5: 11-13
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Originally posted by KingOnPoint
Keepers of the Law of God. . .

King James Version
======================
I John 2: 21-26
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Let that therefore abide ...[text shortened]... at ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

What happened to Rajk999 ?? Did he loose his faith in his works to gain him eternal life?

Originally posted by RJHinds
What happened to Rajk999 ?? Did he loose his faith in his works to gain him eternal life?

Just watching to see if and when anyone can deal with the opening post. So far nothing. So far everyone is just beating around the bush.

Its like Christ said after he told the man what he has to do to get eternal life .. the man was sorrowful and just walked off.

You people are reacting the same way. Your way of walking off is trying to post fluff and nonsense with the hope that what Christ said will go away, or that your interpretation of Paul can override Christ.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Just watching to see if and when anyone can deal with the opening post. So far nothing. So far everyone is just beating around the bush.

Its like Christ said after he told the man what he has to do to get eternal life .. the man was sorrowful and just walked off.

You people are reacting the same way. Your way of walking off is trying to post fluff and ...[text shortened]... ope that what Christ said will go away, or that your interpretation of Paul can override Christ.

Oh, you are talking about the man that claimed he had kept the commandments from his youth without sinning; and when told he lacked one thing, walked off sorrowful because he was very rich.

The one thing he lacked was the most important thing to salvation and that was to stop putting his faith in material riches and the works he could do, and put his faith in Christ.

Hey All Others,
This repetitious, but. . .

Cold weather is coming and maybe snow possibly. How is weather for everyone else? I hope you all have a good coming few days. Who will be the coldest? 🙂

I <may> not post for a few days. However, I do want to say that even if love is one way to fulfill the Law of God. That is only part of the Law of God. There are many things to do in the Law of God, one of which is to offer a trespass offering. Because God wanted a way for Israel, I guess, who sin without knowing they sinned, to have an offering to cover the sin. It might be in Leviticus 5.

Loving God as the Law of God says is impossible for a human being to do without sinning unless God works a miracle every time possible sinning comes up. However, unlike what ThinkOfOne <might> think, we can sin while knowing and while not knowing. Don't think that the 10 commandments are all of the Law of God. Read in the Old Testament about every law that Israel was to keep.

The Gospel, or "Good News" is that the Lord Jesus is now the High Priest for everyone. No more priests of the Levites are needed to offer for Israel or the Gentiles. Christ offered His blood for our sins. His blood was accepted by God for our sins. Now, no more sacrificing for sins is needed. Christ's blood is the final sacrifice needed for sins.

King James Version
========================
Hebrews 4: 14-16
Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Hebrews 7: 27
Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

Hebrews 9: 12
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Hebrews 10: 10
By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Hebrews 2: 3
How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

Originally posted by SwissGambit
I might as well be debating Moe, Larry and Curly. 😕

I feel for you, SG!

You made a very good point, how it is impossible to " believe" something - by an act of the will - if you instinctively know that it is absurd!

But they all sidestep the point with ridiculous comments!

Go figure.

Originally posted by Rajk999
KOP's question #2:

Secondly, please show one scripture in context that tells a person who believes in Christ Jesus for his salvation will not be given eternal life.

Answer :

There are several but here are just 2

[i]Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Fat ...[text shortened]... rks.

James is also very clear [b] faith without works is dead .. no explanation required.[/b]

Here's my 2 cents worth to this (and many similar ) debates.

Over the centuries, there are certain passages in the Bible (or sets of passages) that can be interpreted in contradictory manner. These are some examples:

1. Faith and Works (i.e. The current discussion)
2. Armenianism vs Calvinism, (i.e. Predestination)
3. Eternal Security (once saved always saved)
4. Eschatology (any number of views)

The list goes on.

The point is that each of those views can be defended from scripture! And merely referring to that scripture solves nothing, since the "opposing side" will interpret the scripture differently, so the ping-pong match goes on...

A more correct approach IMHO would be to accept BOTH as true, and to hold the tension between them. There is an old Franciscan saying to the effect that " Yes, AND...." which allows for both interpretations, without allowing it to cause a doctrinal division. The Big Picture is, in fact, bigger than anyone of us imagines.

Herendethelesson.

Originally posted by CalJust
I feel for you, SG!

You made a very good point, how it is impossible to " believe" something - by an act of the will - if you instinctively know that it is absurd!

But they all sidestep the point with ridiculous comments!

Go figure.

Originally posted by CalJust
I feel for you, SG!

You made a very good point, how it is impossible to " believe" something - by an act of the will - if you instinctively know that it is absurd!

But they all sidestep the point with ridiculous comments!

Go figure.

CalJust, "if you instinctively know that [something] "is absurd", "by an act of the will" you reject it by refusing to believe it;

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby Thread 157812 (Page 7)

There are three basic systems of human perception: 1) Rationalism (determining reality through reason); 2) Empiricism (determining reality through the senses of sight, touch, taste, hearing and smell); 3) Faith (determining reality through confidence in the authority and/or veracity of someone). All of us have relied and continue to rely on all three of these systems of perception in our daily lives. Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast." 3) Faith: "through/by faith" is required.

the accuracy or inaccuracy of your assessment and decision, determine whether the consequences are positive or negative.

Originally posted by Rajk999
KOP's question #2:

Secondly, please show one scripture in context that tells a person who believes in Christ Jesus for his salvation will not be given eternal life.

Answer :

There are several but here are just 2

[i]Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Fat ...[text shortened]... rks.

James is also very clear [b] faith without works is dead .. no explanation required.[/b]

"Not Everyone Who Says "Lord, Lord" Will Enter the Kingdom" Matthew 7:21-23 By Bob Wilkin

"21 Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?" 23 And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness."

"Recently I received a question from a reader about this passage. He wondered how I would respond to the charge that this passage teaches that one must submit to the Lordship of Christ to be saved. The interpretation of this passage hinges not on the expression, "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,'" but on the expression, "He who does the will of My Father."

Jesus did not say that no one who says "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom. He said, rather, that not all who say that will enter. So, who among those who say "Lord, Lord" will enter? Answer: those who do the will of the Father. What, then, does Jesus mean by the will of the Father and who are those who do it? One popular view today suggests that by the expression "the will of My Father" Jesus meant a life characterized by obedience to all that the Father has commanded. Thus those who do the will of the Father would be people who live godly, holy lives.

There are several problems with this interpretation. First, God is perfect and one cannot enter His kingdom without becoming absolutely perfect (Isa. 64:6; Gal. 3:6-14; Heb. 10:1-18; James 2:10). Second, one cannot be said to have done the will of the Father unless he does it completely, 100%. To violate even just one of God's commands is to break them all (James 2:10). Third, even if these first two objections were not valid, this view leads to the unbiblical conclusion that no one can ever be sure that he is saved until he dies or is raptured. No one could ever know if he had obeyed enough. Yet the Scriptures are clear that the apostles knew with absolute certainty that they were saved and they wanted their readers to know this as well (Luke 10:20; John 13:10; Rom. 8:31-39; 2 Pet. 1:1; 1 John 2:12-14, 25; 5:13).

There is another view as to what Jesus meant by the expression "the will of My Father." When Jesus spoke of doing the will of the Father to obtain kingdom entrance, He had one act of obedience in mind: believing the gospel. It is God's will that none should perish but that all should come to a change of mind about the gospel (2 Pet. 3:9). When asked the question, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" Jesus said, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent" (John 6:28-29).

In John 3:36 John is quoted as saying, "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe/obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." The word translated "he who does not believe" in the KJV and the NKJV and "he who does not obey" in the NASV is the verb apeitheo. The leading Greek Lexicon of the New Testament by Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, and Danker makes a very insightful comment about apeitheo which sheds light on both John 3:36 and our passage, Matthew 7:21-23:

A person who trusts in Christ alone obeys completely the will of the Father to believe in Jesus Christ alone for eternal salvation. Such a person obtains absolute perfection before God [positionally speaking] since Christ takes away all of his sins and gives him His righteousness in exchange (2 Cor. 5:21; Col. 2:13-14; Heb. 10:1-18). And, such a person can be 100% sure of his salvation since he can know with certainty that he has done the will of the Father (in relation to the gospel) once and for all (cf. John 3:16; 5:24; Rom. 8:38-39; 1 John 5:13)." http://www.faithalone.org/magazine/y1988/88dec3.html

Originally posted by CalJust
Here's my 2 cents worth to this (and many similar ) debates.

Over the centuries, there are certain passages in the Bible (or sets of passages) that can be interpreted in contradictory manner. These are some examples:

1. Faith and Works (i.e. The current discussion)
2. Armenianism vs Calvinism, (i.e. Predestination)
3. Eternal Security (once saved alw ...[text shortened]... l division. The Big Picture is, in fact, bigger than anyone of us imagines.

Herendethelesson.

Good comment. I accept that both are correct. But to do that you have to give Jesus Christ his due. Now the faith only crowd does not place any emphasis on what Jesus preached. You can see that by their response in this thread and the other KOP thread. For them Christ is just a name to boast about. His teachings mean nothing.

Christ said : Love and Charity = Eternal life
Christ said: Believe in Him and you will be saved.
Christ said : Follow Him and you will be saved.

All of those statements mean just one thing ie to obey His commandments.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Good comment. I accept that both are correct. But to do that you have to give Jesus Christ his due. Now the faith only crowd does not place any emphasis on what Jesus preached. You can see that by their response in this thread and the other KOP thread. For them Christ is just a name to boast about. His teachings mean nothing.

Christ said : Love and Chari ...[text shortened]... d you will be saved.

All of those statements mean just one thing ie to obey His commandments.

But doesn't God's grace supersede all.