1. Standard membershavixmir
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    12 May '06 11:45
    Surely all Christians should pray for old Lucifer...
    I mean, if anyone's soul needs savin'....it's his...
  2. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    12 May '06 11:49
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    Surely all Christians should pray for old Lucifer...
    I mean, if anyone's soul needs savin'....it's his...
    Don't sweat for Luce's sake, he's only doing his job. Him 'n God'll kiss & make up at the end of the picture.
  3. Unknown Territories
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    12 May '06 11:56
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    Surely all Christians should pray for old Lucifer...
    I mean, if anyone's soul needs savin'....it's his...
    He's already been sentenced; this is just the appeal phase of the trial. He'll even get a shot at incarceration, and that won't change him, either.
  4. Cape Town
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    12 May '06 12:05
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    He's already been sentenced; this is just the appeal phase of the trial. He'll even get a shot at incarceration, and that won't change him, either.
    So is he outside time like God or within the universe?
    God and you know that he wont change (and I am sure he over heard us speaking) so what happened to his free will?

    Just like us God created him, gave him free will, but neglected to give him the intelligence to know what the right choices were. Surely that comes down to negligence on Gods part?
  5. Unknown Territories
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    12 May '06 12:11
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    So is he outside time like God or within the universe?
    God and you know that he wont change (and I am sure he over heard us speaking) so what happened to his free will?

    Just like us God created him, gave him free will, but neglected to give him the intelligence to know what the right choices were. Surely that comes down to negligence on Gods part?
    So is he outside time like God or within the universe?
    No. Limited to the local (much to his chagrin).

    so what happened to his free will?
    He is free right now. As stated, his sentence has already been rendered. This phase that we live in (human history) is the appeal process that God granted Satan in order for him to make his few cases against God's judgment.

    Just like us God created him, gave him free will, but neglected to give him the intelligence to know what the right choices were.
    You mean you haven't made a choice?
  6. Cape Town
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    12 May '06 12:421 edit
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    No. Limited to the local (much to his chagrin).

    He is free right now. As stated, his sentence has already been rendered. This phase that we live in (human history) is the appeal process that God granted Satan in order for him to make his few cases against God's judgment.
    So is this universe time or external universe time? Was satan created, lived, and sentenced all before man was created but withing the time of the universe?

    You mean you haven't made a choice?
    Yes I have made a choice, but you are telling me it is the wrong choice. Hence I must be not intelligent enough to know what the right choice is (or simply lacking information). Hence God must be negligent. Similarly for Satan.

    [edit]
    few cases against God's judgment
    Nearly missed that bit. Are you implying that Gods judgement may be imperfect? That the outcome may not be already determined? Or is God like a big cat that likes to toy with its mice?
  7. Unknown Territories
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    12 May '06 13:02
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    So is this universe time or external universe time? Was satan created, lived, and sentenced all before man was created but withing the time of the universe?

    [b]You mean you haven't made a choice?

    Yes I have made a choice, but you are telling me it is the wrong choice. Hence I must be not intelligent enough to know what the right choice is (or simp ...[text shortened]... tcome may not be already determined? Or is God like a big cat that likes to toy with its mice?[/b]
    Was satan created, lived, and sentenced all before man was created but withing the time of the universe?
    Yes, prior to human history. Man was created to resolve the angelic conflict, and he inhabits the very sphere previously inhabited by Satan when he was Lucifer.

    Hence I must be not intelligent enough to know what the right choice is (or simply lacking information).
    It is not for lack of intelligence or information that you have made your current decision. However, I may be wrong on the information part. Perhaps you are not aware what it takes (according to God) for a man to be saved. You may have been raised or exposed to those who treated Christianity as though it were a religion, full of taboos and ought-nots and whatnot, never knowing that salvation is wrought by nonmeritorious faith in the work of the cross by the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Initially compelling to arrogant human thinking, a system of works and prohibited behavior feels like it should be right. That's not God's way, however. Any plan is only as strong as its weakest link. God left nothing up to the possible/probable failure of others. All the work is His and, therefore, all the glory. He did the work, our part is simple: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.

    Hence God must be negligent. Similarly for Satan.
    NO ONE knew more about God than Lucifer. Knowledge wasn't the issue in rejecting God's plan for his life. Arrogance was the issue for him, and for all who follow his same path.

    Are you implying that Gods judgement may be imperfect? That the outcome may not be already determined? Or is God like a big cat that likes to toy with its mice?
    No, that is not the inferrence at all. God knows the future as clearly as the past and present. This present reality is merely for our benefit, not His.
  8. Cape Town
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    12 May '06 13:36
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    It is not for lack of intelligence or information that you have made your current decision. However, I may be wrong on the information part. Perhaps you are not aware what it takes (according to God) for a man to be saved. You may have been raised or exposed to those who treated Christianity as though it were a religion, full of taboos and ought-nots and w ...[text shortened]... He did the work, our part is simple: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.
    So it is my arrogance that has caused me to make the wrong decision. So why is it not negligence on Gods part to have given me arrogance and not you?
  9. Standard memberChurlant
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    12 May '06 20:04
    I cannot see a "loving" God allowing Lucifer to continue existing, yet not be held accountable for doing so.

    If the state allowed a vicious killer to remain free, I suspect a few calls to the Governor's office would be in order - even without the convenience of knowing for sure whether said killer would actually harm anyone (omniscience, in other words). There would not be enough blame to go around.

    Meanwhile when God does it, no one seems to hold Him to His responsibility in the matter. I wonder why that is?

    -JC
  10. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    12 May '06 20:06
    Look--without tension the system would be inert. "Evil is the active springing from energy". The entire production would be scrapped if there wasn't an engaging villain to keep us all entertained. Thank God for the Devil!
  11. Donationbbarr
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    12 May '06 20:08
    Originally posted by Churlant
    I cannot see a "loving" God allowing Lucifer to continue existing, yet not be held accountable for doing so.

    If the state allowed a vicious killer to remain free, I suspect a few calls to the Governor's office would be in order - even without the convenience of knowing for sure whether said killer would actually harm anyone (omniscience, in other words). ...[text shortened]... t, no one seems to hold Him to His responsibility in the matter. I wonder why that is?

    -JC
    Because allowing Lucifer to roam free is a necessary condition of this being the best of all possible worlds. A world is the best of all possible worlds if and only if it corresponds perfectly to the will of God. So, God allowed Lucifer to roam free because God willed that Lucifer roam free. Dizzy yet?
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    12 May '06 20:10
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    Look--without tension the system would be inert. "Evil is the active springing from energy". The entire production would be scrapped if there wasn't an engaging villain to keep us all entertained. Thank God for the Devil!
    I hate it when the director is also the screenwriter. And the star.
  13. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    12 May '06 20:15
    Originally posted by dottewell
    I hate it when the director is also the screenwriter. And the star.
    Sylvester Stallone would make a convincing God.
  14. Standard memberChurlant
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    12 May '06 20:15
    Originally posted by bbarr
    Because allowing Lucifer to roam free is a necessary condition of this being the best of all possible worlds. A world is the best of all possible worlds if and only if it corresponds perfectly to the will of God. So, God allowed Lucifer to roam free because God willed that Lucifer roam free. Dizzy yet?
    I believe the standard "explanation" is that we, as humans with free (and sometimes evil) will "allow" Lucifer to remain through our negative actions and if he were removed by God, this event would contradict God's promise of free will.

    In other words, it's obviously our fault because God is supposed to be infallible. How nice for Him.

    -JC
  15. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    12 May '06 21:24
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    He's already been sentenced; this is just the appeal phase of the trial. He'll even get a shot at incarceration, and that won't change him, either.
    Are you saying he doesn't have free will?
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