1. Standard memberAThousandYoung
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    12 May '06 21:24
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    He's already been sentenced; this is just the appeal phase of the trial. He'll even get a shot at incarceration, and that won't change him, either.
    Are you saying he doesn't have free will?
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    12 May '06 22:05
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    Surely all Christians should pray for old Lucifer...
    I mean, if anyone's soul needs savin'....it's his...
    You're a little late I'm afraid.
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    13 May '06 00:25
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    [b]Was satan created, lived, and sentenced all before man was created but withing the time of the universe?
    Yes, prior to human history. Man was created to resolve the angelic conflict, and he inhabits the very sphere previously inhabited by Satan when he was Lucifer.

    Hence I must be not intelligent enough to know what the right choice is (or s ...[text shortened]... s clearly as the past and present. This present reality is merely for our benefit, not His.
    fascinating Byzantine forum !
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    13 May '06 05:08
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    So it is my arrogance that has caused me to make the wrong decision. So why is it not negligence on Gods part to have given me arrogance and not you?
    God gave us free will. What we do with that is our decision (and consequence), not God's.
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    13 May '06 05:13
    Originally posted by Churlant
    I cannot see a "loving" God allowing Lucifer to continue existing, yet not be held accountable for doing so.

    If the state allowed a vicious killer to remain free, I suspect a few calls to the Governor's office would be in order - even without the convenience of knowing for sure whether said killer would actually harm anyone (omniscience, in other words). ...[text shortened]... t, no one seems to hold Him to His responsibility in the matter. I wonder why that is?

    -JC
    I cannot see a "loving" God allowing Lucifer to continue existing, yet not be held accountable for doing so.
    Don't be deceived: whatever anyone sows, they will reap. Lucifer objected to God's sentence, using the same argument that you often see in these forums: how could a loving God condemn a creature He created to hell?
    Surely a just God would give Lucifer (now Satan) every opportunity to prove his objection worthy of being sustained?

    Meanwhile when God does it, no one seems to hold Him to His responsibility in the matter. I wonder why that is?
    Because when God allows someone to ramble on, He has an intention for good that far outweighs any bad that could come of the former. The work of Christ, for example, far outstrips even the most heinous crimes of all mankind. It's not even close.
  6. Unknown Territories
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    13 May '06 05:14
    Originally posted by bbarr
    Because allowing Lucifer to roam free is a necessary condition of this being the best of all possible worlds. A world is the best of all possible worlds if and only if it corresponds perfectly to the will of God. So, God allowed Lucifer to roam free because God willed that Lucifer roam free. Dizzy yet?
    Well, there you go again. For some odd reason, you often (repeatedly, consistently) confuse God's will with God's desires. Oh, well, you'll figure it out someday, I'm sure.
  7. Unknown Territories
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    13 May '06 05:16
    Originally posted by Churlant
    I believe the standard "explanation" is that we, as humans with free (and sometimes evil) will "allow" Lucifer to remain through our negative actions and if he were removed by God, this event would contradict God's promise of free will.

    In other words, it's obviously our fault because God is supposed to be infallible. How nice for Him.

    -JC
    Almost sounds as though you are saying God needs Satan. Silly. Man had free will prior to Satan tricking the woman in the Garden. He was simply used as a test. How we do on the quiz means everything.
  8. Standard memberChurlant
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    13 May '06 10:58
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    Surely a just God would give Lucifer (now Satan) every opportunity to prove his objection worthy of being sustained?
    [/b]
    Why is that? You have already indicated Satan will not be saved, so what is the point of allowing him to continue causing pain and misery?

    -JC
  9. Standard memberChurlant
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    13 May '06 11:03
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    Almost sounds as though you are saying God needs Satan. Silly. Man had free will prior to Satan tricking the woman in the Garden. He was simply used as a test. How we do on the quiz means everything.
    Well, no. We need Satan in order to provide God with an excuse. If He has a hand in everything that happens - an alcohol-related driving accident that kills a daughter - then True Believers certainly need a scapegoat (hm.. Bible humor...).

    "God works in mysterious ways" as a lone theory does get somewhat old after a few hundred years, I would think.

    -JC
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    13 May '06 11:26

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  11. Standard memberChurlant
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    13 May '06 11:32
    Originally posted by 7ate9
    a judge from a town i lived in had his daughter die because of a drunk driver. the idiot goes above the law and always hands out harsher sentences to people caught drink-driving. it's sad his daughter died, but it is wrong of him to go above the law because of his personal problems.

    God, the devil. naa, i would say that is people who made a wrong choice.
    I entirely agree. Humanity does enough evil (and good) on its own. There is hardly a need for either a God or Satan to justify these things, except as a coping mechanism for the harsher realities of life.

    -JC
  12. Unknown Territories
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    13 May '06 13:14
    Originally posted by Churlant
    Why is that? You have already indicated Satan will not be saved, so what is the point of allowing him to continue causing pain and misery?

    -JC
    Did you think Satan was going around poking people with a pitchfork? Satan is doing everything in his power to prove that God is not a necessary element of the possession and performance of intrinsic good.

    The mess that we're in is a result of trying to make a 'good and evil' system work. Not so hot so far, now is it? Don't fret, though, because it will get better soon... or, at least, it will appear to be better for a season. Then all chaos will break out, all under the authority of Satan, unable to control his own kingdom.

    As far as the purpose? I don't worry too much about that: I'll take every ounce of pain and suffering coming my way just for the opportunity to be in the game. Since God saw fit to allow Satan an appeal process (which, IMO shows supreme confidence in the 'rightness' of His position) and since in the course of that appeal process, l'il ol' me was wrought, who am I to complain?
  13. Unknown Territories
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    13 May '06 13:16
    Originally posted by Churlant
    Well, no. We need Satan in order to provide God with an excuse. If He has a hand in everything that happens - an alcohol-related driving accident that kills a daughter - then True Believers certainly need a scapegoat (hm.. Bible humor...).

    "God works in mysterious ways" as a lone theory does get somewhat old after a few hundred years, I would think.

    -JC
    "God works in mysterious ways" as a lone theory does get somewhat old after a few hundred years, I would think.
    Amen, bro. Amen. Good thing He gave us doctrine in order to keep things straight. I, for one, would get fed up hearing that same line time after time.
  14. Standard memberChurlant
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    13 May '06 13:511 edit
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    Since God saw fit to allow Satan an appeal process (which, IMO shows supreme confidence in the 'rightness' of His position)

    I can appreciate an appeals process. What I can't appreciate is allowing Satan to remain free during that process, especially when God already knows how that appeal will end. While you may not be worried about "purpose", I find the concept of letting such evil to act freely highly sadistic.

    Amen, bro. Amen. Good thing He gave us doctrine in order to keep things straight. I, for one, would get fed up hearing that same line time after time.

    Ironically this "doctrine" still represents a high degree of repetition. As an example, each attempt I make at questioning how one could logically consider a God that allows a being such as Satan to remain free as "loving" seems to be met with avoidance.

    "I don't know His purpose" is simply "God works in mysterious ways" in different clothing.

    -JC
  15. Subscriberkmax87
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    13 May '06 14:47
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    Sylvester Stallone would make a convincing God.
    I would prefer an articulate God.
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