Progressive revelation

Originally posted by vistesd
[b]I think your evaluation of prophesy is one in which the author is in control of the meanings/intentions of what is being said rather than a higher power.

Short answer: I don’t know—although you are correct that I have been treating them that way.

Here’s a personal; story that may have some analogous features: My wife and I were once driving on ...[text shortened]... personal details on here, that sense of faith came via another kind of “road-trip” experience...[/b]

Yes, it reminds me of a road trip my wife and I took as well. It was an ill concieved venture and one in which I had serious reservations about, and in all honesty after looking at it in hindsight, it was a trip I should not have gone along with at all. We had been driving for hours and hours and hours. Neither of us had said a word to each other for about 3-4 hours and she just out of the blue asks me, "How many miles have we gone"? Just as I had looked to see it turned to 666 miles!!!!!!! I nearly slammed on the brakes to turn around but I did'nt...............but should have.

I guess I see what you are getting at in terms of prophesies being timeless and faceless in that anyone can perhaps take of piece of it and apply it somehow to their own lives. I think there is even some truth to this view. However, when I read such prophesies as the beasts in Daiel chapter 7 we are given interpretations for which the prophesies primary predictions are focused. These were predictions regarding coming world empires, or at least in terms of the interpretation. Similarly, in Revelation chapter 17 we are given the prophesy of the "Great Harlot" and the subsequent interpretation. If these prophesies were not specific only regarding a coming event why then give the interpretation? Why not just leave the interpretation up to the reader so that they can apply it to their own lives? For me logical assumption dictates that such prophesy is specific to a coming world wide event as a warning of some kind. And if it is accurate pinpointing a specific event, one must ask by what power this is possible?

Originally posted by whodey
Yes, it reminds me of a road trip my wife and I took as well. It was an ill concieved venture and one in which I had serious reservations about, and in all honesty after looking at it in hindsight, it was a trip I should not have gone along with at all. We had been driving for hours and hours and hours. Neither of us had said a word to each other for about f it is accurate pinpointing a specific event, one must ask by what power this is possible?

With regard to Rev. 17—

>> NRS Revelation 17:7 But the angel said to me, "Why are you so amazed? I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast with seven heads and ten horns that carries her. 8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to ascend from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the inhabitants of the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will be amazed when they see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come. 9 "This calls for a mind that has wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; also, they are seven kings, 10 of whom five have fallen, one is living, and the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain only a little while. 11 As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction. 12 And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast. 13 These are united in yielding their power and authority to the beast; 14 they will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful." 15 And he said to me, "The waters that you saw, where the whore is seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and languages. 16 And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the whore; they will make her desolate and naked; they will devour her flesh and burn her up with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by agreeing to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled. 18 The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth."

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The footnotes in my Harper-Collins Study Bible make the following comments (I won’t do all of them):

17:1-18 A vision of Rome as the great whore.

17:1 The great whore. The metaphor of the prostitute is often used in the OT for godless cities... Seated on many waters aptly describes the location of historical Babylon.

17:3 Scarlet beast. The Roman Empire.

17:5 On her forehead was written a name suggest the lowest form of prostitute, a tattooed slave.

17:6 The saints, the many Christian martyrs.

17:8 It was and is not and is to come, a parody of the divine title “who is and who was and who is to come”; here is not means “has died.”

17:9 Seven mountains. That Rome was located on seven hills was first popularized by Varro (116-27 BCE). Seven kings, either seven actual emperors (either Julius Caesar or Augustus could be counted as the first), or a symbol for a complete series.

17:11 An eighth, the returned Nero.

17:12 Ten kings, subordinate kings on the eastern borders of the empire.

17:16 They will make her desolate and naked, the returned Nero, with Parthian allies will destroy Rome.

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The “interpretation” in 7-18 is not a literal interpretation by any means, but is itself “coded.” The above study notes attempt to, at least partially, “de-code” it by looking at clues in historical events of the period. This is the method of exegesis called “historical criticism.” This from the Introduction to the book in the above-referenced study Bible—

“Many early Christian writers thought that Revelation had been written toward the end of Domitian’s reign (81-96 C.E.), but a few later writers thought that John had written a generation earlier, during the persecution that occurred in 64 C.E. under Nero (54-68 C.E.). Evidence supporting both dates can be found in then book. Rev. 11.3 suggests that the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem (destroyed by the Romans in 70 C.E.) was still standing when the book was written. Further, the code name of the beast in Rev. 13.18 is 666, widely thought to symbolize that name Nero Caesar. However, other data suggest date after 70. There are several allusions (13.3;17.9-11) to the legend of Nero’s return that circulated throughout the eastern Mediterranean during the two decades following his suicide in 68. Further, Revelation frequently uses ‘Babylon’ as a code name for Rome...,but Jews used this code name only after the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70. In the light of this conflicting evidence, it appears likely that the book was actually composed and assembled in stages over many years, and was only completed in its present form toward the end of the first century C.E.”

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With regard to other inter-textual references to prophecy—i.e., NT applications of OT prophetic texts to NT events—there are two possibilities:

(1) They are records of actual future-telling prophecy (as opposed to other kinds of prophetic statements).

(2) The later writer searched the older texts for passages that supported the connection that that writer wanted to make, or explained a perceived connection (perhaps to make a spiritual, rather than a historical, point).

You basically have to choose, because using the latter reference to prove that the earlier text was prophesying the future really begs the question.

Now, how you choose will not only influence, but is likely to be influenced by, your particular hermeneutical understanding of the possibilities for reading the texts. Personally—and following not only the four-fold midrashic exegesis traditional in Judaism, but also the three-fold “midrashic” exegesis of early church*—I do not find “literalist/historicist” readings to be very conclusive (though the various forms of critical exegesis mentioned below can help set a foundation for deeper readings).

Origen first developed the three-fold reading of:

(1) soma – the “body” level; the plain narrative, including whatever historical content may be there. In Jewish terminology, this is the “garment of Torah,” not Torah itself.

(2) psuche – the “soul” level; the interpretation that seeks to derive the “moral of the story.”

(3) pneuma – the “spirit” level; that which points to deeper theological and spiritual principles.

Conflicts and contradictions between texts at the first level are not to be resolved by more and more clever readings at that level (or going outside the text to impose solutions at that level); but by moving to progressively deeper (allegorical and symbolic) levels, where such “body” conflicts are not so much resolved—they are simply not relevant.

* IN addition to paying attention to form criticism, historical criticism, literary criticism, and textual criticism.