THE WORD OF GOD

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Then free will is an illusion, for the ability to exercise free will entails the ability to determine future states.

God's ability to know the future doesn't change your free will.

Originally posted by windmill
God's ability to know the future doesn't change your free will.

If God knows what I will have for dinner tonight, then it has already been determined what I will have for dinner tonight, for knowledge pertains only to facts, and facts are only things that have been determined.

But if it has already been determined, then it is an illusion that I am exercising free will in choosing my dinner, since I am not doing the determining.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
It's a truth revealed in the Bible repeatedly.

Could you give me, let's say, three instances ?

Originally posted by windmill
God's ability to know the future doesn't change your free will.

Very true.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
The Triune God does not know the future, which means that you do not believe in God's omniscience.

Is this a belief confessed by your Church, the Southern Baptist Church if my memory serves me well, or is it your own version of the Christian faith ?

If you went around and interviewed people in my church and my denomination, I would venture to say that 99% would say God is omniscient. So to answer your question, this is my particular experience of faith.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
If God knows what I will have for dinner tonight, then it has already been determined what I will have for dinner tonight, for knowledge pertains only to facts, and facts are only things that have been determined.

But if it has already been determined, then it is an illusion that I am exercising free will in choosing my dinner, since I am not doing the determining.

God knowing something doesn't determine it.It would only be determined by God if He took action...which is fine.

Originally posted by kirksey957
If you went around and interviewed people in my church and my denomination, I would venture to say that 99% would say God is omniscient. So to answer your question, this is my particular experience of faith.

I see, but to be precise it is not an experience but an opinion. Correct ? Otherwise I'm awfully curious to hear from you about that experience.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
If God knows what I will have for dinner tonight, then it has already been determined what I will have for dinner tonight, for knowledge pertains only to facts, and facts are only things that have been determined.

But if it has already been determined, then it is an illusion that I am exercising free will in choosing my dinner, since I am not doing the determining.

You are having problems with perspective and the notion of time. I don't blame you however. We all have.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Could you give me, let's say, three instances ?

When God sent his son in John 3:16, did he already know who all would believe in him? If he did, then God really sent his son only for those select people. He didn't send any help for those whom he knew would not believe in Jesus - he left them no hope whatsoever, and he knew it. Is this compatible with your notion of God? If not, then you must reject his omniscience.

When God tested Abraham, did he know the outcome? If he did, then the test was a sadistic exercise - he didn't need to carry it out to know that Abraham would be faithful. Is sadism compatible with your notion of God? If not, then you must reject his omniscience.

When God made Adam and Eve, did he know that they would eat the fruit? If he did, then it was inevitable that they would sin. Thus, God punished them for something beyond their control. Is such great injustice compatible with your notion of God? If not, then you must reject omniscience.

Originally posted by windmill
God knowing something doesn't determine it.

But it being determined is a prerequisite for knowledge. It is logically impossible to know something that has not yet been determined.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
You are having problems with perspective and the notion of time. I don't blame you however. We all have.

I disagree. Describe the alleged problems in a coherent manner.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
I see, but to be precise it is not an experience but an opinion. Correct ? Otherwise I'm awfully curious to hear from you about that experience.

Well, I don't that I am that much different from other people in that my experiences shape who I am. I would point you to the first post in the "spiritual autobiography" thread. This is a wonderful account of God in life. Was it necessary for God to be omniscient in his account for there to be some spiritual/human insight for him?

Originally posted by ivanhoe
If that is true he wouldn't have committed suicide.

Well, that could have been part of the instructions. But even if he didn't follow instructions, he did something which according to the bible was predicted and necessary. What would have happened if he hadn't done it? Would someone else have stepped in for him? What if nobody would have wanted to do it? If people really have a free will, that would have been a possibility, wouldn't it?

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
When God sent his son in John 3:16, did he already know who all would believe in him? If he did, then God really sent his son only for those select people. He didn't send any help for those whom he knew would not believe in Jesus - he left them no hope whatsoever, and he knew it. Is this compatible with your notion of God? If not, then you must ...[text shortened]... h great injustice compatible with your notion of God? If not, then you must reject omniscience.

-U added in only?????
-Yes He did know the outcome and Abraham i'm sure would have become a better man as his faith and others would have grown big time through listening to God.
-That's a good one.God created a world beyond their own control and punished them for it.I'm sure they learnt to become more obediant.

My problem with the idea of the omniscience of God is that it breeds either a deep rooted fatalism found in many fundamentalist sects or a pervasive cheap grace also found in many fundamentalist denominations.