"What We Believe"

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
[b]"What We Believe"

1) "The Bible: We believe that the Bible, composed of 66 canonical books in their original languages, is the inspired, inerrant and infallible Word of God (Psa 119:89; 2Tim 3:16; 2Pet 1:20-21)."

2) "Trinity: We believe that God is a Trinity of 3 Persons, namely, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit w ...[text shortened]... enstrom (1 of 2)

http://www.wenstrom.org/modules.php?name=StaticText&pagename=what_we_believe[/b]

There seems to be a slight inconsistency between

3) "Total Depravity of Man: We believe ... This totally depraved state of man qualifies him for grace. Grace is all that God is free to do based solely on the merits of the Person and Work of Christ. Man has absolutely no ability to redeem himself or restore his relationship with God (Rom 3:22-23, 5:12-17; Eph 2:12)."

and

6) "Salvation: We believe that eternal salvation is received by the sinner who makes the non-meritorious decision to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. Christ's accomplished redemption on the cross provided man's reconciliation to God. (John 3:15-16; 5:24; 6:40, 47; 20:31; Act 16:31; Rom 3:24-25; 5:11, 16; 2Cor 5:18-21; Eph 2:8-9)."

Do you think you might be able to explain this apparent contradiction? How can youi simultaneously believe that there is absolutely nothing someone can do to save themselves and at the same time that to be saved you must choose to believe in Jesus Christ?

Originally posted by Penguin
There seems to be a slight inconsistency between

[quote][b]3) "Total Depravity of Man: We believe ... This totally depraved state of man qualifies him for grace. Grace is all that God is free to do based solely on the merits of the Person and Work of Christ. Man has absolutely no ability to redeem himself or restore his relationship with God ...[text shortened]... ave themselves and at the same time that to be saved you must choose to believe in Jesus Christ?

I think it should be pretty clear that Bill Wenstrom is the Pastor Teacher to ask; it's his work to begin with. Maybe it's covered in his extensive Library. I'd think GB would not assume to occupy this role.

Edit: The 318-page document titled The Sin Nature, at

http://www.wenstrom.org/downloads/written/doctrines/harmatiology/sin_nature.pdf

might touch on it.

Originally posted by JS357
I think it should be pretty clear that Bill Wenstrom is the Pastor Teacher to ask; it's his work to begin with. Maybe it's covered in his extensive Library. I'd think GB would not assume to occupy this role.

Edit: The 318-page document titled The Sin Nature, at

http://www.wenstrom.org/downloads/written/doctrines/harmatiology/sin_nature.pdf

might touch on it.

I think it is still relevent to ask this of GB, seeing as he counts himself as one of those who believe all those things on the list. Presumably he has considered each point and found a resolution for any inconsistancies.

So GB, do you see the apparent inconsistancy between points 3 and 6 and how do you personally resolve it?

--- Penguin

Originally posted by Penguin
There seems to be a slight inconsistency between

[quote][b]3) "Total Depravity of Man: We believe ... This totally depraved state of man qualifies him for grace. Grace is all that God is free to do based solely on the merits of the Person and Work of Christ. Man has absolutely no ability to redeem himself or restore his relationship with God ...[text shortened]... ave themselves and at the same time that to be saved you must choose to believe in Jesus Christ?

"Do you think you might be able to explain this apparent contradiction? How can youi simultaneously believe that there is absolutely nothing someone can do to save themselves and at the same time that to be saved you must choose to believe in Jesus Christ?" --- Penguin

"Man has absolutely no ability to redeem himself or restore his relationship with God..."

therefore God provided the means:

a "... non-meritorious decision to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation..."

Man cannot earn nor deserve nor merit salvation, relationship with God and eternal life... the only way is to accept God's Grace Gift by faith. Penguin, I appreciate your focus and honest question. Please clarify the "apparent contradiction".

Originally posted by Penguin
I think it is still relevent to ask this of GB, seeing as he counts himself as one of those who believe all those things on the list. Presumably he has considered each point and found a resolution for any inconsistancies.

So GB, do you see the apparent inconsistancy between points 3 and 6 and how do you personally resolve it?

--- Penguin

3) "Total Depravity of Man: We believe that man is created in the image of God but as a result of Adam's original sin of disobedience in the garden of Eden, the entire human race receives a totally corrupt and depraved nature. Every member of the human race is born physically alive but spiritually dead meaning they are separated from God. This totally depraved state of man qualifies him for grace. Grace is all that God is free to do based solely on the merits of the Person and Work of Christ. Man has absolutely no ability to redeem himself or restore his relationship with God (Rom 3:22-23, 5:12-17; Eph 2:12)."

6) "Salvation: We believe that eternal salvation is received by the sinner who makes the non-meritorious decision to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. Christ's accomplished redemption on the cross provided man's reconciliation to God. (John 3:15-16; 5:24; 6:40, 47; 20:31; Act 16:31; Rom 3:24-25; 5:11, 16; 2Cor 5:18-21; Eph 2:8-9)."

Christ did the work knowing that Grampy Bobby and Penguin couldn't do it no matter how strenuous an effort they made. Salvation is a Grace Gift. It's free; believe in Christ and it's yours. Some will choose to reject the gift to their peril.

Originally posted by JS357
I think it should be pretty clear that Bill Wenstrom is the Pastor Teacher to ask; it's his work to begin with. Maybe it's covered in his extensive Library. I'd think GB would not assume to occupy this role.

Edit: The 318-page document titled The Sin Nature, at

http://www.wenstrom.org/downloads/written/doctrines/harmatiology/sin_nature.pdf

might touch on it.

JS, your diligence in exploring this site is admirable. I'm impressed with Pastor-Teacher Wenstrom's directness and clarity.

Originally posted by Penguin
Are you saying that everyone who believes in 6 and 8 also believes in all the other stuff in those two posts? If so I think you may be mistaken.

--- Penguin.

6) "Salvation: We believe that eternal salvation is received by the sinner who makes the non-meritorious decision to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. Christ's accomplished redemption on the cross provided man's reconciliation to God. (John 3:15-16; 5:24; 6:40, 47; 20:31; Act 16:31; Rom 3:24-25; 5:11, 16; 2Cor 5:18-21; Eph 2:8-9)."

8) "Church: We believe that the church, which is the Body of Christ is composed of all church age believers. The church is a spiritual organism, and all believers are in union with Christ and is not based upon affiliation with Christian denominations or organizations. (1Cor 12:12-14; Eph 1:22)."
___________________________________________

Originally posted by Penguin
Are you saying that everyone who believes in 6 and 8 also believes in all the other stuff in those two posts? If so I think you may be mistaken.

--- Penguin.

An infant believer in Christ is ignorant of the whole realm of absolute truth in God's Word. Please see 15) Growing in grace:

15) "Responsibility of the Believer: The responsibility of the believer after salvation is to desire the sincere milk of the Word and to be continually nourished by it so that he may grow spiritually in grace and in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is God's desire that first every man be saved, and secondly that every believer in Christ come to intimately know Him through the inculcation of the Word of God (1Titus 2:4). The effectual work of God's Word brings the believer into adjustment with God's purpose, plan, and will. The internal execution of God's Word brings glory to the Lord (Rom 12:1-2; 2Cor 13:9; 1Titus 4:6; 1Pet 2:2; 2Pet 3:18)."

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
1) "The Bible: We believe that the Bible, composed of 66 canonical books in their original languages, is the inspired, inerrant and infallible Word of God [/b]

Does this inerrancy and infallibility only apply to the original works which as far as we know, no longer exist? I find the mention of 'original languages' curious.
And why those particular 66 books?

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
JS, your diligence in exploring this site is admirable. I'm impressed with Pastor-Teacher Wenstrom's directness and clarity.

I'm overwhelmed by the volume of material at the site, and wanted to point that out. I think anybody who wants to explore the basis of those 19 points in his "What We Believe" has their work cut out for them.

Originally posted by JS357
I'm overwhelmed by the volume of material at the site, and wanted to point that out. I think anybody who wants to explore the basis of those 19 points in his "What We Believe" has their work cut out for them.

Both scope and clarity impressed me as well. For sixteen years of teaching ministry, the volume indicates a workmanlike ethic. Please feel free to quote other relevant sections that expand the Basic Tenets of Christianity in "What We Believe".

Originally posted by twhitehead
Does this inerrancy and infallibility only apply to the original works which as far as we know, no longer exist? I find the mention of 'original languages' curious.
And why those particular 66 books?

1) "The Bible: We believe that the Bible, composed of 66 canonical books in their original languages, is the inspired, inerrant and infallible Word of God (Psa 119:89; 2Tim 3:16; 2Pet 1:20-21)."

Originally posted by twhitehead
Does this inerrancy and infallibility only apply to the original works which as far as we know, no longer exist? I find the mention of 'original languages' curious.
And why those particular 66 books?

"canonical" or canonicity derives from the Greek 'kanon': a rod or ruler, measuring stick or norm Galatians 6:16; Philippians 3:16. The Bible is the absolute divine standard; for 66 book canonization explanation detail, please check Wenstrom first.

http://www.wenstrom.org/modules.php?name=StaticText&pagename=what_we_believe

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
It's pretty common for churches to spell out their beliefs on their website in order to allow people to make an informed decision when seeking out a church. Within Christianity there is a WIDE variety of beliefs, since the Bible is littered with conflicting/contradictory information. The beliefs in the first two posts are the beliefs of the following chur ...[text shortened]... rg/index.php
[/quote]

Evidently they aren't established enough to have a set meeting place.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
"The beliefs in the first two posts are the beliefs of the following church and, from what I gather, the beliefs of GB."

Yes, ThinkOfOne. I believe in Christ. And am not a member of any denomination.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
[b]1) "The Bible: We believe that the Bible, composed of 66 canonical books in their original languages, is the inspired, inerrant and infallible Word of God (Psa 119:89; 2Tim 3:16; 2Pet 1:20-21)."

Originally posted by twhitehead
Does this inerrancy and infallibility only apply to the original works which as far as we know, no longer exi ...[text shortened]... Wenstrom first.

http://www.wenstrom.org/modules.php?name=StaticText&pagename=what_we_believe[/b]

"The Doctrine of Canonicity"

"Definition and Description: The term canon or canonicity in Christianity refers to a collection of many books acknowledged by the early church as the rule of faith and practice and is derived from the Greek word kanon which originally meant a rod or a ruler, hence, a measuring stick or norm of faith and eventually a catalogue or list. This is exactly what the Bible is-a norm or standard-the divine and absolute standard.

The term kanon was employed 6 times in the NT (2 Cor. 10:13, 15-16; Gal. 6:16; Phlp. 3:16), but it is first employed of the books of Scripture in the technical sense of a standard collection or body of sacred writings by the church fathers of the 4th century A.D. such as in the 59th canon of the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 363), in the Festal Epistle of Athanasius 367), and by Amphilochius, archbiship of Iconium (395).

The object of this study is to demonstrate how the church acquired the Scriptures from its very origin to the printed page, and to present its relationship to history and its effects upon mankind. Some Christians are unnerved by the fact that nowhere does God itemize the sixty-six books that are to be included in the Bible. Many believers have at best a vague notion of how the church arrived at what we call the Canon of Scripture. Even after becoming more aware, some believers are uncomfortable with the process by which the New Testament Canon was determined.

For many, it was what appears to be a haphazard process that took far too long. Furthermore, whether talking with a Jehovah's Witness, a liberal theologian, or a New Ager, Christians are very likely to run into questions concerning the extent, adequacy, and accuracy of the Bible as God's revealed Word. In this essay, therefore, we will consider the development of the doctrine of the Scriptures in the Church Age. Just how did the church decide on the books for inclusion in the New Testament? This discussion will include both how the Canon was established and the various ways theologians have viewed the Bible since the Canon was established. The period immediately following the passing of the Apostles is known as the period of the Church Fathers. Many of these men walked with the Apostles and were taught directly by them. Polycarp and Papias, for instance, are considered to have been disciples of the Apostle John.

Doctrinal authority during this period rested on two sources, the Old Testament (O.T.) and the notion of Apostolic succession, being able to trace a direct association to one of the Apostles and thus to Christ. Although the New Testament (N.T.) Canon was written, it was not yet seen as a separate body of books
equivalent to the O.T...."
2003 William E. Wenstrom, Jr. Bible Ministries."

http://www.wenstrom.org/downloads/written/doctrines/bibliolgy/canonicity.pdf

"The Doctrine of Canonicity" (Page 2)

"... equivalent to the O.T. Six church leaders are commonly referred to: Barnabas, Hermas, Clement of Rome, Polycarp, Papias, and Ignatius (Berkhof, The History of Christian Doctrines, 37). Although these men lacked the technical sophistication of today's theologians, their correspondence confirmed the teachings of the Apostles and provides a doctrinal link to the N.T.

Christianity was as yet a fairly small movement. These Church Fathers, in the early Church, were consumed by the practical aspects of Christian life among the new converts. Therefore, when Jehovah's Witnesses argue that the early church did not have a technical theology of the Trinity, they are basically right. There had been neither time nor necessity to focus on the issue. On the other hand these men clearly believed that Jesus was God as was the Holy Spirit, but they had yet to clarify in writing the problems that might occur when attempting to explain this truth. The early Church Fathers had no doubt about the authority of the O.T., often prefacing their quotes with "For thus saith God" and other notations.

As a result they tended to be rather moralistic and even legalistic on some issues. Because the N.T. Canon was not yet settled, they respected and quoted from works that have generally passed out of the Christian tradition. The books of Hermas, Barnabas, Didache, and 1 and 2 Clement were all regarded highly (Hannah, Lecture Notes for the History of Doctrine, 2.2). As Berkhof writes concerning these early Church leaders, "For them Christianity was not in the first place a knowledge to be acquired, but the principle of a new obedience to God" (Berkhof, History of the Christian Church, 39).

Although these early Church Fathers may seem rather ill prepared to hand down all the subtle implications of the Christian faith to the coming generations, they form a doctrinal link to the Apostles (and thus to our Lord Jesus Christ), as well as a witness to the growing commitment to the Canon of Scripture that would become the N.T. As Clement of Rome said in first century, "Look carefully into the Scriptures, which are the true utterances of the Holy Spirit". Geisler, Decide For Yourself, Page 11).

The Apologists....

http://www.wenstrom.org/downloads/written/doctrines/bibliolgy/canonicity.pdf

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
[b]"The Doctrine of Canonicity" (Page 2)

"... equivalent to the O.T. Six church leaders are commonly referred to: Barnabas, Hermas, Clement of Rome, Polycarp, Papias, and Ignatius (Berkhof, The History of Christian Doctrines, 37). Although these men lacked the technical sophistication of today's theologians, their correspondence confirmed the te ...[text shortened]... ologists....[/b]

http://www.wenstrom.org/downloads/written/doctrines/bibliolgy/canonicity.pdf[/b]

A remaining comment on ""The Bible: We believe that the Bible, composed of 66 canonical books in their original languages, is the inspired, inerrant and infallible Word of God (Psa 119:89; 2Tim 3:16; 2Pet 1:20-21)."

(emphasis added)

Apparently he did not believe that God would preserve the "inspired, inerrant and infallible" nature of the canon through their translation to Latin and subsequent renderings.

But I haven't looked into his Library about this. It makes little difference to me; it's just a curiosity in comparison with other religious opinions I'm accustomed to.