1. Hmmm . . .
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    06 Dec '15 06:162 edits
    Who is a “True Muslim™”?

    Only Sunnis? Only Shia? Only Twelver Shia? Only Sevener Shia (the Nizaris)? How about the Sufis? Which Sufis? How about the Amadiyyah?

    Or is it only the Wahhabis? The Salafis?

    How important are the Hadith? Which hadith? For which Muslims?

    Which translation of the Quran is the most accurate? Muhammad Asad’s? Or Yusuf Ali’s—or Ahmed Ali’s or Muhammad Maulana Ali’s? How about Laleh Bakhtiar’s? What do you think of the Reformist Translation? How do you know?

    How does one read the Quran? How does context work in the Quran? (Surely not the same as in the Biblical texts.) How is historical context to be considered for different verses, and strings of verses? How does poetry work in the Quran? How does dialectic? Do you know?

    There seem to be some non-Muslims on here who act as if they know all about “True Islam™”. And who the “True Muslims™” are.

    How do they know?

    __________________________________

    EDIT: I am not an expert. But I wrote all of that without looking anything up—there might be some misspellings. (And I know I missed some translations of the Quran—such as Pickthall’s; but I’m still going strictly from memory.)

    [Oh. Also, I think that Michael Sells’ translations of the early surahs are excellent; I don’t know Arabic, but his poetry and the openness of meanings that he allows is impressive—as I understand from my readings that classical Arabic is (somewhat like its sister language Hebrew) radically polysemous. I wish he would produce a translation of the whole Quran.]
  2. Standard memberRJHinds
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    06 Dec '15 07:33
    Originally posted by vistesd
    Who is a “True Muslim™”?

    Only Sunnis? Only Shia? Only Twelver Shia? Only Sevener Shia (the Nizaris)? How about the Sufis? Which Sufis? How about the Amadiyyah?

    Or is it only the Wahhabis? The Salafis?

    How important are the Hadith? Which hadith? For which Muslims?

    Which translation of the Quran is the most accurate? Muhammad Asad’s? O ...[text shortened]... nguage Hebrew) radically polysemous. I wish he would produce a translation of the whole Quran.]
    I would say the "True Muslims" are those that follow the lead of Muhammad and his Quran just as the "True Christians" are those that follow the lead of Jesus Christ and the Holy Bible.
  3. Hmmm . . .
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    06 Dec '15 07:56
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    I would say the "True Muslims" are those that follow the lead of Muhammad and his Quran just as the "True Christians" are those that follow the lead of Jesus Christ and the Holy Bible.
    That’s too simple.

    Are Catholics “True Christians™”? How about Lutherans? Or Anglicans? Where I lived for about 25 years, the Baptists and the Church of Christers were both convinced that the other were not in any way “True Christians™”.

    And whose interpretation of the Bible? The Jehovah’s Witnesses? The Greek Orthodox? Sonships? Divegeesters? Rajks? Yours?

    If the early Muslim community, following Muhammad, had women worshiping alongside men—and commenting openly on the Qur’an in mixed company—is that truer Islam than the male-centric versions we tend to see today? (Christian feminist theologian Elizabeth Schussler-Fiorenza might say “kyriarchic versions”.) Are the feminist Muslims—like Fatema Mernissi and Amina Wadud—the “True Muslims™”? (I think that a case can be made that they are.)

    I’ve already thrown down with the Sufis—so obviously, I think that Sufic nondualism represents something closer to the truth than, say, the Wahhabis. And a better reading of the Quran.

    I am arguing against fatuous generalizations.

    ___________________________________________________

    An Imam once told me that I was, of course, Muslim. The fact that I was a Christian was of no real import—that, to him, was just how I expressed my surrender to God in peace (which is essentially what “Islam” means; based on the word for peace and well-being: salam, the same as the Hebrew shalom). That was what a Muslim was to him—something beyond the confines of a particular religious expression. I didn’t know enough at the time to ask him if he was a Sufi.
  4. Standard memberRJHinds
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    06 Dec '15 08:06
    Originally posted by vistesd
    That’s too simple.

    Are Catholics “True Christians™”? How about Lutherans? Or Anglicans? Where I lived for about 25 years, the Baptists and the Church of Christers were both convinced that the other were not in any way “True Christians™”.

    And whose interpretation of the Bible? The Jehovah’s Witnesses? The Greek Orthodox? Sonships? Divegeesters? ...[text shortened]... particular religious expression. I didn’t know enough at the time to ask him if he was a Sufi.
    The following is my summary of the Four Horses of Revelation.

    I believe the revealing of the White Horse and Rider is first, because it is the prominent feature that begins the endtimes events leading right in to the tribulations for of those days. This Rider on the White Horse is the spirit of the Antichrist or the Mahdi, savior of Islam, who rides in peacefully with a bow, signifying a position of strength, but with no arrows to deceive Israel into thinking he has peaceful intentions. So he is given a crown and declared King for his ability to negotiate peaceful agreements and goes about conguering and conquering by the deception of peace.

    The peace from the White Horseman is short lived because the Jihad spirit of the Red Horse is unleased by which they kill each other because of their sharia law and inability to remain peaceful with each other and because their hatred of Israel and Christians. So they are gathered to go to war against Israel causing great shedding of blood by war, which is symbolized by the color red and the great sword.

    But before these two Horsemen can finish their ride, a Black Horse and Rider is unleashed that is another demonic spirit of Islam with the intentions of toppling the economic systems of the Capitalist Christians and Jews by attacking their commerce. All this leads to economic hardship for those not having the ability to buy and sell throught the mark of the beast empire of Islam. However, they are not allowed to harm the servants of God, symbolized by the oil and wine.

    Then finally, the Pale Green Horse and rider represents the full release of the Islamic demon spirits to reck havoc in the Great tribulation period with all four horsemen riding with the intent to conquer Israel and the whole world with every means possible. Satan's wrath is now fully unleashed at this time through the Islamic beast empire.
  5. SubscriberSuzianne
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    06 Dec '15 12:53
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    The following is my summary of the Four Horses of Revelation.

    I believe the revealing of the White Horse and Rider is first, because it is the prominent feature that begins the endtimes events leading right in to the tribulations for of those days. This Rider on the White Horse is the spirit of the Antichrist or the Mahdi, savior of Islam, who rides in p ...[text shortened]... s possible. Satan's wrath is now fully unleashed at this time through the Islamic beast empire.
    I've heard you spout this nonsense before, and I said it was stupid then, and it's just as stupid now. The Bible never mentions Islam, but it's not because Islam is a demonic religion or belongs to the AntiChrist or Satan, or anything stupid like that.
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    06 Dec '15 21:15
    Originally posted by vistesd
    [b]That’s too simple.
    Jesus pointed to children and said that the kingdom of God belongs to such people.

    Yes, it is meant to be simple.
  7. Standard memberRJHinds
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    06 Dec '15 22:402 edits
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    I've heard you spout this nonsense before, and I said it was stupid then, and it's just as stupid now. The Bible never mentions Islam, but it's not because Islam is a demonic religion or belongs to the AntiChrist or Satan, or anything stupid like that.
    It may not be exactly right, but it is the best I can do at present. 😏

    By the way, there was no such religion as Islam when the Holy Bible was written.
  8. Standard memberDasa
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    07 Dec '15 05:031 edit
    Originally posted by vistesd
    Who is a “True Muslim™”?

    Only Sunnis? Only Shia? Only Twelver Shia? Only Sevener Shia (the Nizaris)? How about the Sufis? Which Sufis? How about the Amadiyyah?

    Or is it only the Wahhabis? The Salafis?

    How important are the Hadith? Which hadith? For which Muslims?

    Which translation of the Quran is the most accurate? Muhammad Asad’s? O ...[text shortened]... nguage Hebrew) radically polysemous. I wish he would produce a translation of the whole Quran.]
    The terrorists are the true Muslims.

    And why is that?

    Because the Quran incites rape and murder and torture and oppression which the terrorists are doing fabulously.

    This is fact.

    DO YOUR RESEARCH and you will see this is true.

    There is a trail of blood and mutilated bodies going back 1400 years when Islam was fabricated by the child molesting paedophile and murderer Mohammed.
  9. Standard memberDeepThought
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    07 Dec '15 08:51
    Originally posted by vistesd
    Who is a “True Muslim™”?

    Only Sunnis? Only Shia? Only Twelver Shia? Only Sevener Shia (the Nizaris)? How about the Sufis? Which Sufis? How about the Amadiyyah?

    Or is it only the Wahhabis? The Salafis?

    How important are the Hadith? Which hadith? For which Muslims?

    Which translation of the Quran is the most accurate? Muhammad Asad’s? O ...[text shortened]... nguage Hebrew) radically polysemous. I wish he would produce a translation of the whole Quran.]
    They'd be the ones next to the true Scotsmen.
  10. Cape Town
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    07 Dec '15 10:43
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    They'd be the ones next to the true Scotsmen.
    If a True Scotsman converted to Islam, would he still be a Scotsman.
  11. Standard memberRJHinds
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    07 Dec '15 20:59
    Originally posted by Dasa
    The terrorists are the true Muslims.

    And why is that?

    Because the Quran incites rape and murder and torture and oppression which the terrorists are doing fabulously.

    This is fact.

    DO YOUR RESEARCH and you will see this is true.

    There is a trail of blood and mutilated bodies going back 1400 years when Islam was fabricated by the child molesting paedophile and murderer Mohammed.
    I agree.
  12. Mar-a-Lago
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    07 Dec '15 21:51
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    The following is my summary of the Four Horses of Revelation.

    I believe the revealing of the White Horse and Rider is first, because it is the prominent feature that begins the endtimes events leading right in to the tribulations for of those days. This Rider on the White Horse is the spirit of the Antichrist or the Mahdi, savior of Islam, who rides in p ...[text shortened]... s possible. Satan's wrath is now fully unleashed at this time through the Islamic beast empire.
    Nicely put Pastor.
  13. Hmmm . . .
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    08 Dec '15 03:31
    Originally posted by Dasa
    The terrorists are the true Muslims.

    And why is that?

    Because the Quran incites rape and murder and torture and oppression which the terrorists are doing fabulously.

    This is fact.

    DO YOUR RESEARCH and you will see this is true.

    There is a trail of blood and mutilated bodies going back 1400 years when Islam was fabricated by the child molesting paedophile and murderer Mohammed.
    . . .the Quran incites rape and murder and torture and oppression . . .

    I am not Muslim. But I have actually read the Quran, more than once, and so I now know that you are a rank liar.
  14. Standard memberRJHinds
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    08 Dec '15 06:502 edits
    Originally posted by vistesd
    [b] . . .the Quran incites rape and murder and torture and oppression . . .

    I am not Muslim. But I have actually read the Quran, more than once, and so I now know that you are a rank liar.[/b]
    From the Quran

    One goal of jihad is to make Islam superior over all religions (Suras 9:33, 48:28, and 61:9).

    Sura 4:24 says: And forbidden to you are wedded wives of other people except those who have fallen in your hands (as prisoners of war) . . .

    Sura 33:26 speaks of killing captured men and enslaving women and children.

    Sura 47:4 says: When you meet the disbelievers in battle, strike them in the neck, and once they are defeated, bind any captives firmly—later you can release them by grace or by ransom—until the toils of war have ended.

    In Sura 8:70 Muhammad tells those you have taken captive, "If God knows of any good in your hearts, He will give you something better [Islam] than what has been taken from you, and He will forgive you."

    Sura 9:29 says: Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

    The Hadith are the collections of the reports claiming to quote what the prophet Muhammad said verbatim on any matter.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith
  15. Cape Town
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    08 Dec '15 10:49
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Sura 4:24 says: And forbidden to you are wedded wives of other people except those who have fallen in your hands (as prisoners of war) . . .

    Sura 33:26 speaks of killing captured men and enslaving women and children.

    Sura 47:4 says: When you meet the disbelievers in battle, strike them in the neck, and once they are defeated, bind any captives firmly—l ...[text shortened]... s and Christians) until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
    If you hadn't told us otherwise I would have thought all of those were straight from the Bible. Of course I could find much worse in the Bible. I am sure the Jews were told to kill those wedded wives rather than marry them and captives too were mostly to be slaughtered not 'released by grace or ransom'.

    I also wonder what you thought was relevant in Sura 8:70 or did you just cut/paste without actually reading it?
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