Why do the Christians care?

Joe Fist

Spirituality

16 Aug '05 02:57

Halitose
I stink, ergo I am
On the rebound
Joined
14 Jul '05
Moves
4464
22 Aug '05 21:101 edit
Originally posted by Joe Fist
[b]I believe God created the universe with physical and moral laws, which may operate beneficially for some but not for others. (We may say water which is 'beautifully warm' to an adult will burn a small child). Morally, because wrong actions result where free wills operate, the possibility of suffering is inevitable. God does not violate the aggressive p ...[text shortened]... e solution would be to go bowling or something. I don’t see how God has provided this antidote?
Yeah but you just wrote that God created these laws then why can’t God manipulate them so they will be beneficial for all and not just some? It is like saying the inventor of an automobile at first fails by putting the gas tank too close to the rear bumper so when a rear end collision occurs, the car explodes and the driver dies. Does the inventor not modify the car so this does not happen again? Can’t God wipe the human slate clean and free of original sin so that all of mankind does not have to suffer anymore? Why doesn’t God violate the will of an aggressor or a rapist for the better? Free will? I think that suffering is too much of a cost for free will if that is the case.

[/b]You don't wanna know how many times I cursed Adam for his stupidity. Until one day I realised that if I had been in his situation, I would have probably done the same thing. That's what makes us human, I believe its both a blessing and a curse. To be created by a God, who lets us choose whether we want to serve Him or not. God chose not to create robots, but seperate individual souls, that can choose to serve Him of their own free will. The mere fact that we are able to choose means that evil exists. You can't get a right without a wrong; A good without a bad to compare it with; Light without darkness; Heat without cold. I can't even begin to imagine what a world without free will is. A world where every temperature would be perfect. A world where eveybody just does the best thing possible. A world that will be without pain or suffering. I guess thats a place I'll call Heaven.

But again, if we suppose the story of Creationism is true, why should all of mankind suffer because of Adam and Eve? Maybe I am nuts but I would rather be healthy and happy and be thought of as a flock by God absent of free will then to go through and witness the atrocities of mankind. While pain exists, I doubt it is required to have a fulfilling life.

I know I'm gonna contradict myself here from what I said above, but lets take a look at it from another angle. Lets say that God's moral law existed. Wouldn't you agree with me, that everybody, has broken it? Then surely it isn't just Adam and Eve's fault. When Adam and Eve sinned by disobeying God, He cursed them. As sinful man, we are partakers of that curse, because we are just as guilty. Together with the curse, God allows us to alleviate it as much humanly possible. Modern medicine works from that premise.

I believe that God uses pain to call us to Him. Who would you think would be more receptive to God's call: A rich egotistical dude who is getting all that he wants, or somebody who is enduring some sort of suffering. Let me add that suffering normally opens your eyes to the suffering that goes on around you, and makes you more willing to help those in need.

Then I have a suggestion for God: Either loosen up on the cost and penalties of having free will or strip mankind of free will altogether and place us in a state of bliss where the notion of having free will would never occur to us.

Changing a parameter here, might have consequences that are very far reaching. For instance. Maybe choosing God is a prerequisite to be recoconised as His child. If we could never choose, we could never be elevated to point above even the angels. I say again, I believe that life here on earth is just a drop in the bucket, and that is a point I fear many people overlook.

I don’t like the idea of life being some sort of “trial” where all along it is God that created the conditions of this trial to begin with.

It is a very easy trial then. Its really quite easy. Accept Christ and allow Him to work in your life. God does all the work, all He requires is a receptive being.

With all due respect, I never got and still don’t get that connection either. Having your son endure some pretty horrific torture and a painful death for the sins of mankind? Aside from the Bible, how does that in anyway make any logical sense? To me that it is like a non-sequiter, like if I were to cut my thumb slicing a tomato, the solution would be to go bowling or something. I don’t see how God has provided this antidote?

Theology and logic have never been my forte, but I'm gonna try and explain this one, I'll probably still fail miserably.

There is something about God's holiness that He finds sin so abhorrent that only a blood sacrifice would do as attonement. In ancient times, a animal was killed and sacrificed as penance for sin. This led to a ritualistic faith bound in the rite of sacrifice as opposed to worshiping God. They were given the old covenant (hence the Old Testament) of animal sacrifice as a means of recieving redemption. The old testament was a shadow of the messiah to come, who would perfect everything. That was why Christ came. That was the reason He had to die. Here was somebody who had fulfilled the requirements of Gods Law, who willingly laid down his life as a sacrifice for all sin and so fulfilling Gods requirement, man can now freely approach the throne of grace.
sonhouse
Fast and Curious
slatington, pa, usa
Joined
28 Dec '04
Moves
53223
22 Aug '05 23:16
Originally posted by Halitose
And to answer the question which doubles as the title of your thread. I do care. I don't do this for the money. I get payed about US$160.00 a month. I can honestly say that it is because if my belief in Christ that I do what I do. If I didn't feel the need to show the love of Christ to these poor kids, I would have definitely been somewhere else in some o ...[text shortened]... tians on the forum don't financially support mission work, because that is just as essential.
You are the kind of person I call a hero and you do it not just to
prosletyse(sp?) I find it commendable you don't preach christianity
to the kids despite your own convictions. That is true heroism to me.
~~Removed~~
Joined
08 Dec '04
Moves
100919
22 Aug '05 23:54
Originally posted by Halitose
To Halitose...
I have read this very fine thread between you and Joe Fist and am impressed with your answers and your articulation...It is easy to see that God in Christ is working in you, and through you...may God bless you richly for your service to Him and these children....

To Joe Fist...
I have new found respect for your honesty and humbleness...I pray that you will find what you are looking for.
Joe Fist
Troubador
Land of Fist
Joined
28 Sep '04
Moves
21779
23 Aug '05 15:194 edits
Originally posted by Halitose
[b]Yeah but you just wrote that God created these laws then why can’t God manipulate them so they will be beneficial for all and not just some? It is like saying the inventor of an automobile at first fails by putting the gas tank too close to the rear bumper so when a rear end collision occurs, the car explodes and the driver dies. Does the inventor not ...[text shortened]... all sin and so fulfilling Gods requirement, man can now freely approach the throne of grace.[/b]
You don't wanna know how many times I cursed Adam for his stupidity. Until one day I realized that if I had been in his situation, I would have probably done the same thing. That's what makes us human, I believe its both a blessing and a curse. To be created by a God, who lets us choose whether we want to serve Him or not. God chose not to create robots, but seperate individual souls, that can choose to serve Him of their own free will. The mere fact that we are able to choose means that evil exists. You can't get a right without a wrong; A good without a bad to compare it with; Light without darkness; Heat without cold. I can't even begin to imagine what a world without free will is. A world where every temperature would be perfect. A world where eveybody just does the best thing possible. A world that will be without pain or suffering. I guess thats a place I'll call Heaven.

Right but should Adam or Eve or for that matter the serpent be cursed for original sin? At least in Adam’s and Eve’s case, they were God’s “children” and they did not fully consider the ramifications of their actions. In essence, isn’t Lucifer (the serpent) a child of God as well? While the serpent’s intentions were quite more malicious, wasn’t he the product of God’s creation? I respect the idea that we are not “robots” but at the same time we do all share some common programming such as the need to eat or the need to breathe air. I think Free Will could exist without the possibility of evil.

You can't get a right without a wrong; A good without a bad to compare it with; Light without darkness; Heat without cold. I can't even begin to imagine what a world without free will is. A world where every temperature would be perfect. A world where eveybody just does the best thing possible. A world that will be without pain or suffering. I guess thats a place I'll call Heaven.

Exactly. My question is why cannot this description of Heaven exist here on Earth? Considering all of the suffering in the world I would imagine many, including myself, would forfeit their free will to live in bliss throughout their lifetime.

I know I'm gonna contradict myself here from what I said above, but lets take a look at it from another angle. Lets say that God's moral law existed. Wouldn't you agree with me, that everybody, has broken it? Then surely it isn't just Adam and Eve's fault. When Adam and Eve sinned by disobeying God, He cursed them. As sinful man, we are partakers of that curse, because we are just as guilty. Together with the curse, God allows us to alleviate it as much humanly possible. Modern medicine works from that premise.

I think I answered this above but yes all have broken God’s moral law as you have described and no I don’t blame Adam, Eve or the serpent. I guess I do blame God for creating the temptation in the first place.

I believe that God uses pain to call us to Him. Who would you think would be more receptive to God's call: A rich egotistical dude who is getting all that he wants, or somebody who is enduring some sort of suffering. Let me add that suffering normally opens your eyes to the suffering that goes on around you, and makes you more willing to help those in need.

I grant that suffering offers one a much more genuine perspective on things but I guess I go back to creating the situation of why does the opposite have to be some “rich egotistical dude”? Why can’t it be a hard working person that lives a good life. I don’t think “Pain” is a desirable method in which God calls to us. Granted maybe that is the way it is but I still don’t see the need for it?

Changing a parameter here, might have consequences that are very far reaching. For instance. Maybe choosing God is a prerequisite to be recoconised as His child. If we could never choose, we could never be elevated to point above even the angels. I say again, I believe that life here on earth is just a drop in the bucket, and that is a point I fear many people overlook.

Right but again, I look at God as the inventor of an automobile and if need be, he could scrap the designs of mankind until He got it right, right? If we believe God knows all then God knows the consequences already.

It is a very easy trial then. Its really quite easy. Accept Christ and allow Him to work in your life. God does all the work, all He requires is a receptive being.

This is where you and I differ, my friend. I understand millions of people believe as you do but I also think many believe as I where they tend to think of believing in God requires one to jump through many hoops contrary how to one personally believes. I am not attempting to be disrespectful or to sound like a broken record but logically and morally, the pieces do not make sense to me.

Theology and logic have never been my forte, but I'm gonna try and explain this one, I'll probably still fail miserably.

There is something about God's holiness that He finds sin so abhorrent that only a blood sacrifice would do as attonement. In ancient times, a animal was killed and sacrificed as penance for sin. This led to a ritualistic faith bound in the rite of sacrifice as opposed to worshiping God. They were given the old covenant (hence the Old Testament) of animal sacrifice as a means of recieving redemption. The old testament was a shadow of the messiah to come, who would perfect everything. That was why Christ came. That was the reason He had to die. Here was somebody who had fulfilled the requirements of Gods Law, who willingly laid down his life as a sacrifice for all sin and so fulfilling Gods requirement, man can now freely approach the throne of grace

Again logic and theology have not always been my strong suit either but I think because Theology relies on “Faith”, logic isn’t always required.

Your analogy makes sense in the context in which you know Christ but, to give a short answer, if God created the rules why can’t He change them for the better to give everyone, most of all Him, what He so desires?
Palynka
Upward Spiral
Halfway
Joined
02 Aug '04
Moves
8702
23 Aug '05 15:31
Originally posted by Joe Fist
I think Free Will could exist without the possibility of evil.
I think Free Will could exist without the possibility of evil.

I disagree.

In a world without evil (evil defined as in the GAFE), there are no choices left to the individual. For each choice A, there cannot be a choice B where the result would be better than A. Therefore, there cannot be any choice in such a world.

Besides that, a world without evil/suffering would also imply that all individuals must have perfect knowledge of the result of their actions to prevent such suffering.

Risk is the essence of free-will and risk must imply suffering.

In a world without suffering:

- for every action A, there cannot be an action B which is better (defined as less evil/morally preferable) than A;
- There cannot be any risk of not choosing A (individuals must know perfectly the outcome of their results - perfect information);
- All individuals must be rational (between two options, the best is always chosen since there is perfect information)

Therefore, in a world without suffering, for every action A taken, there is a 0% possibility of A not being taken. Where's the free-will if every action A must necessarily be chosen and is chosen?
rwingett
Ming the Merciless
Royal Oak, MI
Joined
09 Sep '01
Moves
27626
23 Aug '05 15:51
Originally posted by Palynka
[b]I think Free Will could exist without the possibility of evil.

I disagree.

In a world without evil (evil defined as in the GAFE), there are no choices left to the individual. For each choice A, there cannot be a choice B where the result would be better than A. Therefore, there cannot be any choice in such a world.

Besides that, a world witho ...[text shortened]... being taken. Where's the free-will if every action A must necessarily be chosen and is chosen?[/b]
I could have soup for lunch. Or a sandwich. Or something really radical like chicken tandoori. I have exercised my free will here, but there was no possibility of evil. Your mistake consists of assuming that all choices must involve the polar opposites of good and evil. There is plenty of room for people to exercise free will without delving into evil. Also, one need not make the optimal choice in every instance. If A is the best choice and B is only marginally good, then choosing B is not evil. It's just not as good. I think it's clear that free will can exist without evil.
Palynka
Upward Spiral
Halfway
Joined
02 Aug '04
Moves
8702
23 Aug '05 16:05
Originally posted by rwingett
I could have soup for lunch. Or a sandwich. Or something really radical like chicken tandoori. I have exercised my free will here, but there was no possibility of evil. Your mistake consists of assuming that all choices must involve the polar opposites of good and evil. There is plenty of room for people to exercise free will without delving into evil. Also ...[text shortened]... is not evil. It's just not as good. I think it's clear that free will can exist without evil.
Also, one need not make the optimal choice in every instance
This is not in agreement with the definition of morally preferable (and evil, by consequence) defined in the GAFE. Evil and Good are relative concepts, not absolutes.

Your mistake consists of assuming that all choices must involve the polar opposites of good and evil.
That's because these are marginal differences in relativeness between good and evil, the fact that much greater evil exists, makes the choice seem a detail. In a perfect world, you have to eat the perfect food or it wouldn't be perfect. The concept of eating a non-perfect diet is passible to be defined as evil. Can you picture an obese in a world full of perfectly healthy humans? Wouldn't he be seen as someone who lost his way?
rwingett
Ming the Merciless
Royal Oak, MI
Joined
09 Sep '01
Moves
27626
23 Aug '05 16:15
Originally posted by Palynka
[b]Also, one need not make the optimal choice in every instance
This is not in agreement with the definition of morally preferable (and evil, by consequence) defined in the GAFE. Evil and Good are relative concepts, not absolutes.

Your mistake consists of assuming that all choices must involve the polar opposites of good and evil.
That's be ...[text shortened]... e in a world full of perfectly healthy humans? Wouldn't he be seen as someone who lost his way?[/b]
This is not in agreement with the definition of morally preferable (and evil, by consequence) defined in the GAFE. Evil and Good are relative concepts, not absolutes.

There may be several choices that are morally acceptable.

That's because these are marginal differences in relativeness between good and evil, the fact that much greater evil exists, makes the choice seem a detail. In a perfect world, you have to eat the perfect food or it wouldn't be perfect. The concept of eating a non-perfect diet is passible to be defined as evil. Can you picture an obese in a world full of perfectly healthy humans? Wouldn't he be seen as someone who lost his way?

Who says you have to eat the perfect food? There are may choices to make within a healthy diet. I do not define good as being perfect.

Or are you saying that if everyone chose good, then evil would simply be redefined to be something much more trivial? Stubbing your toe would be considered evil and we would rail on against god for having created a world where people stub their toes?
Palynka
Upward Spiral
Halfway
Joined
02 Aug '04
Moves
8702
23 Aug '05 16:352 edits
Originally posted by rwingett
[b]This is not in agreement with the definition of morally preferable (and evil, by consequence) defined in the GAFE. Evil and Good are relative concepts, not absolutes.

There may be several choices that are morally acceptable.

That's because these are marginal differences in relativeness between good and evil, the fact that much greater evil ...[text shortened]... d evil and we would rail on against god for having created a world where people stub their toes?
[/b]Or are you saying that if everyone chose good, then evil would simply be redefined to be something much more trivial? Stubbing your toe would be considered evil and we would rail on against god for having created a world where people stub their toes?

That is exactly what I'm saying. That is what the GAFEan definition of evil entails. Toe stubbing is unnecessary suffering, is it not? It may look trivial now, but in a world devoid of other types of suffering it wouldn't.

We clearly diverge on definitions of evil and that is perhaps the issue here.

I do not define good as being perfect.
Me neither because I value free-will. But this is an absolute definition of good. The one I'm using is relative. In a world without evil, there would be no good. They are defined as relative opposites.
Halitose
I stink, ergo I am
On the rebound
Joined
14 Jul '05
Moves
4464
23 Aug '05 18:531 edit
Originally posted by Joe Fist
[b]You don't wanna know how many times I cursed Adam for his stupidity. Until one day I realized that if I had been in his situation, I would have probably done the same thing. That's what makes us human, I believe its both a blessing and a curse. To be created by a God, who lets us choose whether we want to serve Him or not. God chose not to create robot ...[text shortened]... s why can’t He change them for the better to give everyone, most of all Him, what He so desires?
Hey Joe. How you doing?

Right but should Adam or Eve or for that matter the serpent be cursed for original sin? At least in Adam’s and Eve’s case, they were God’s “children” and they did not fully consider the ramifications of their actions.

[/b]I doubt whether God's instruction regarding the eating of the forbidden fruit could have been more direct. "Eat of it and you shall surely die" I believe eating the fruit is what made physical man mortal. Man also died spiritually, because before that Adam had a perfectly normal conversation with God, but from that time, man was seperated from God.

In essence, isn’t Lucifer (the serpent) a child of God as well? While the serpent’s intentions were quite more malicious, wasn’t he the product of God’s creation?

Sure. Forgive me for bringing up free will again, but the mere fact that God created something with the unlimited will to choose means that we can choose to go against God. God didn't install any safety feature to prevent choosing against Him. If He did, that would be limited free will. Aren't people always striving for freedom? I think that is the ultimate freedom, to be able to choose to turn your back on God.

I respect the idea that we are not “robots” but at the same time we do all share some common programming such as the need to eat or the need to breathe air. I think Free Will could exist without the possibility of evil.

I guess Palynka jumped the gun there. Its more or less the same line of reasoning I take on the issue.

Exactly. My question is why cannot this description of Heaven exist here on Earth? Considering all of the suffering in the world I would imagine many, including myself, would forfeit their free will to live in bliss throughout their lifetime.

I don't think this is the answer you were looking for, but please accept my graceless sidestep.
It is still going to happen. Permit me to quote some scripture:
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
ev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

I guess I do blame God for creating the temptation in the first place.

I guess as I said previously that it is through trials and temptations that the true character and nature of man is revealed. We are all created uniquely with different strengths and weaknesses, but it is our choices that form who we really are.

I grant that suffering offers one a much more genuine perspective on things but I guess I go back to creating the situation of why does the opposite have to be some “rich egotistical dude”? Why can’t it be a hard working person that lives a good life.

Uncompromised Free Will allows for "some rich egotistical dude" doesn't it? If God was to put a anti-child lock type safety mechanism on our will, it wouldn't be Free would it?

I don’t think “Pain” is a desirable method in which God calls to us. Granted maybe that is the way it is but I still don’t see the need for it?

In my case it was when I was busy dying of malaria in a foreign country that God reached into my heart and showed me for what I really am. I don't deny that God could have done it in another way, but it sure worked for me.

Right but again, I look at God as the inventor of an automobile and if need be, he could scrap the designs of mankind until He got it right, right? If we believe God knows all then God knows the consequences already.

Sure. But just like a computer program trying to understand and question the programer, I believe there are forces and circumstances at work which we can't even begin to comprehend.

It is a very easy trial then. Its really quite easy. Accept Christ and allow Him to work in your life. God does all the work, all He requires is a receptive being.

On second read this seems to come accross rather bluntly. I did mean this though from the Christian perspective, not as some sort of command or anything.

This is where you and I differ, my friend. I understand millions of people believe as you do but I also think many believe as I where they tend to think of believing in God requires one to jump through many hoops contrary how to one personally believes. I am not attempting to be disrespectful or to sound like a broken record but logically and morally, the pieces do not make sense to me.

I understand. No offence taken and I hope none given. I'm interested in how in your belief one explains the existence of suffering.
Joe Fist
Troubador
Land of Fist
Joined
28 Sep '04
Moves
21779
23 Aug '05 21:28
Originally posted by Palynka
[b]I think Free Will could exist without the possibility of evil.

I disagree.

In a world without evil (evil defined as in the GAFE), there are no choices left to the individual. For each choice A, there cannot be a choice B where the result would be better than A. Therefore, there cannot be any choice in such a world.

Besides that, a world witho ...[text shortened]... being taken. Where's the free-will if every action A must necessarily be chosen and is chosen?[/b]
In a world without evil (evil defined as in the GAFE), there are no choices left to the individual. For each choice A, there cannot be a choice B where the result would be better than A. Therefore, there cannot be any choice in such a world.

I am not familiar with the GAFE definition of evil and I think rwingett has probably already answered this but there are infinite choices left to the individual without the burden of committing evil. Granted some choices may be deemed better than others but for Choice A, you could have Choices B through ZZZ125689?

Besides that, a world without evil/suffering would also imply that all individuals must have perfect knowledge of the result of their actions to prevent such suffering.

Well I didn’t necessarily equate evil with suffering but I guess it could work. Why does this imply all individuals must have perfect knowledge of their actions? People would continue to make bad errors in judgement and others may still be injured from these. However, the lack of motivation for evil, I think would most likely reduce these errors from occurring. Example, a person may still unfortunately get hit by a car on accident but a child would not suffer a brutal rape and murder (granted that all of us agree that rape and murder is evil).

Risk is the essence of free-will and risk must imply suffering.

In a world without suffering:

- for every action A, there cannot be an action B which is better (defined as less evil/morally preferable) than A;

I don’t agree with the statement made. While there is the possibility of an “action B” it is not limited to such and I argue that there are unlimited actions not necessarily good or evil.

- There cannot be any risk of not choosing A (individuals must know perfectly the outcome of their results - perfect information);

Although I disagree with your original premise I will support your above statement. I see nothing wrong with knowing the perfect information as the result of perfectly executed outcome.

- All individuals must be rational (between two options, the best is always chosen since there is perfect information)

Again, I don’t see the downside in this?

Therefore, in a world without suffering, for every action A taken, there is a 0% possibility of A not being taken. Where's the free-will if every action A must necessarily be chosen and is chosen?

I see your point but my original belief was that mankind would be significantly happier without having the burden of Free Will to exist and was in a state of total bliss. So in other words, I would happily trade off Free Will for Evil, Pain, and Suffering.
Joe Fist
Troubador
Land of Fist
Joined
28 Sep '04
Moves
21779
23 Aug '05 21:58
Originally posted by Halitose
Hey Joe. How you doing?

[b]Right but should Adam or Eve or for that matter the serpent be cursed for original sin? At least in Adam’s and Eve’s case, they were God’s “children” and they did not fully consider the ramifications of their actions.

[/b]I doubt whether God's instruction regarding the eating of the forbidden fruit could have been more ...[text shortened]... hope none given. I'm interested in how in your belief one explains the existence of suffering.[/b]
Hey Joe. How you doing?

Doing a bit better thanks. My tonsils were about the size of two golf balls.

I doubt whether God's instruction regarding the eating of the forbidden fruit could have been more direct. "Eat of it and you shall surely die" I believe eating the fruit is what made physical man mortal. Man also died spiritually, because before that Adam had a perfectly normal conversation with God, but from that time, man was seperated from God.

No I don’t doubt the clarity of what God said but I also don’t doubt the clarity of telling my two year old daughter to eat her vegetables. I also doubt she does not understand me and yet she continues to do it from time to time. I have two points here: 1.Why would God even create such a temptation to begin with? 2. Although I understand the story of Jesus dying for the sins of man, why could not God just forgive Adam and start anew? It seems like this is a very severe grudge in a sense that God has over one stupid moment in time of selfishness that all of the innocent ancestors after that time have to pay for?

Sure. Forgive me for bringing up free will again, but the mere fact that God created something with the unlimited will to choose means that we can choose to go against God. God didn't install any safety feature to prevent choosing against Him. If He did, that would be limited free will. Aren't people always striving for freedom? I think that is the ultimate freedom, to be able to choose to turn your back on God.

I don’t mind the argument of “free will” but I sincerely believe God should not have created these conditions in man to begin with because it seems like it was bound for failure on mankind’s part. Not to be crude but why wouldn’t God install a safety feature to prevent uprising against him? In the example of the auto inventor, aren’t there safeguards in place to prevent the car (used relatively safely) from getting out of control?

I also understand that God created mankind in his image and I think what you are trying to express is that “it is up to each one of us to choose or reject whatever we deem true in life”. I can understand where someone might think I demand too much out of God so I choose not to believe in Him. I get angry at Him for the apparent evil committed in the world and I cannot accept that this is “God’s will”. Granted there are a great many good things in the world but for one person to suffer undeservedly makes me question all of it.

I don't think this is the answer you were looking for, but please accept my graceless sidestep.
It is still going to happen. Permit me to quote some scripture:
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
ev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Well that says to me that Heaven is basically coming, right? If that is so then why not now and why won’t God allow those like myself who question entry into this glorious place without the prerequisite of me believing in Him? I think I know the common answer to this but I believe that if God were as just and loving as described then he would take all of us whether or not we believed or understood Him.

Uncompromised Free Will allows for "some rich egotistical dude" doesn't it? If God was to put a anti-child lock type safety mechanism on our will, it wouldn't be Free would it?

Yes it allows for the “dude” but perhaps I misread this earlier but I thought you only made it those two extremes and not for all?

In my case it was when I was busy dying of malaria in a foreign country that God reached into my heart and showed me for what I really am. I don't deny that God could have done it in another way, but it sure worked for me.

And there is no doubt that had I went through with what you did I might feel the same way. As I think I can say if anyone has walked in anyone else’s shoes that might change them. I truly respect your beliefs and I think you have been perhaps the most articulate and friendly I have discussed them with here.

Sure. But just like a computer program trying to understand and question the programer, I believe there are forces and circumstances at work which we can't even begin to comprehend.

That sentence right there is exactly why I am agnostic.

On second read this seems to come across rather bluntly. I did mean this though from the Christian perspective, not as some sort of command or anything.

No worries. I didn’t take it that way.

I understand. No offence taken and I hope none given. I'm interested in how in your belief one explains the existence of suffering.

No offense given at all. To be quite honest, I don’t have my own “belief” so I also don’t have an explanation of the existence of suffering, evil and the like. I believe there is an inherent goodness in most people and I don’t deny it could from Christ but I see this same goodness in many who are not Christians.

I don’t believe in the “good things happen to good people” because many times, “bad things” happen as well for no apparent rhyme or reason.
Palynka
Upward Spiral
Halfway
Joined
02 Aug '04
Moves
8702
23 Aug '05 22:331 edit
Originally posted by Joe Fist
I see your point but my original belief was that mankind would be significantly happier without having the burden of Free Will to exist and was in a state of total bliss. So in other words, I would happily trade off Free Will for Evil, Pain, and Suffering.
Ok, I can accept that as your personal choice but I wouldn't make the same one. But you can't deduce that mankind would be happier just because you (and some) would.

There can be no freedom without free-will and freedom is a very valued sentiment around the world. Still I'm not prepared to make the claim that absence of free-will is better or worse for mankind.

What I'm saying is that for no evil to exist, there can be no free-will. In fact, if there is no evil, there would be no good since I view them as opposing moral relatives. This is not contradictory to your quoted sentence, in fact, it supports the idea that a trade off would be needed.
Halitose
I stink, ergo I am
On the rebound
Joined
14 Jul '05
Moves
4464
25 Aug '05 19:271 edit
Originally posted by Joe Fist
[b]Hey Joe. How you doing?

Doing a bit better thanks. My tonsils were about the size of two golf balls.

I doubt whether God's instruction regarding the eating of the forbidden fruit could have been more direct. "Eat of it and you shall surely die" I believe eating the fruit is what made physical man mortal. Man also died spiritually, becau ...[text shortened]... to good people” because many times, “bad things” happen as well for no apparent rhyme or reason.
[/b]Sorry for the long delays between posts, a combination of your questions being a lot of food for thought and lack of time...

My tonsils were about the size of two golf balls.

Ouch. Mine were taken out as a 4/5 year old kid, so all I can remember is the two days in hospital that felt like a month and of course that hideous gown that doesn't quite close at the back. 😀

1.Why would God even create such a temptation to begin with?

I guess that is the only way to find out if His creation would truly serve Him, would be to put Adam and Eve in a situation where they get to choose.

2. Although I understand the story of Jesus dying for the sins of man, why could not God just forgive Adam and start anew? It seems like this is a very severe grudge in a sense that God has over one stupid moment in time of selfishness that all of the innocent ancestors after that time have to pay for?

I guess I can't directly answer this question, but I gonna try anyways.
Imagine creating an entire universe, the nebulae, the planets, the stars, and then the whole raison d'être of it all: man. Placed in a beautiful paradise, surrounded by magnificent creatures, visited daily by God, man was a creature superior to the animals, with incredible capacity for reason, speech, emotion. A creature that God could enjoy to talk with and share His greatness. I believe that the Knowledge of Good and Evil would eventually have been granted to man when he was ready for it. It was not to be, man sinned and took what he was not ready for. Punished together with his descendants, man was cursed to a life of suffering. However, In His divine grace, God still reaches out to mankind.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

I don’t mind the argument of “free will” but I sincerely believe God should not have created these conditions in man to begin with because it seems like it was bound for failure on mankind’s part. Not to be crude but why wouldn’t God install a safety feature to prevent uprising against him? In the example of the auto inventor, aren’t there safeguards in place to prevent the car (used relatively safely) from getting out of control?

Sure. I tried to explain above that the conditions were a little more in mans favour than they might seem today. I guess by allowing something evil to happen, it doesn't mean God is putting his stamp of approval on it, He is allowing us to exercise our original freedom and will. I believe every person has his/her moment of truth, his/her epiphany, whatever you wish to call it. It is a time in his/her life when God confronts them with a decision where they consciously decide whether they are going to serve God, submit to His will or turn their back on Him. Even after this God goes after His "lost sheep". That is where I believe that an element of suffering comes in. Do you think anybody would even bother to think of God when everything is going well for them? Case in point being a rural community I visited this previous weekend while shooting footage for a AIDS awareness educational film. You must understand that these people have the bare minimum. Mud huts, no concrete floors, a hearth in the middle causing stalagtites of soot to form on the thatch roof. A simple grass mat for a bed. But since that is all they know, I guess one can say that those conditions are when things are going well.
I called at the home/hut of grandmother of three. She had lost her 2 daughters to AIDS, and when she was diagnosed with HIV, her husband left her, although its suspected that he was the one who gave it to her in the first place. She had been an alcoholic prone to drunken nightly revelry with the local rastafarians. When I saw her last week, she was a different person. Crying tears, she thanked God for what He had done for her.

I truly believe that Gods love is far reaching.

Well that says to me that Heaven is basically coming, right?
Yep. 🙄

If that is so then why not now and why won’t God allow those like myself who question entry into this glorious place without the prerequisite of me believing in Him? I think I know the common answer to this but I believe that if God were as just and loving as described then he would take all of us whether or not we believed or understood Him.

I'm in no position to judge who will go to heaven or not. Allow me to quote some scripture as a pointer though: 😉

Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. Psa 33:18 Behold, the eye of the LORD is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy; Psa 33:19 To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine. Psa 103:11 For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him. Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance. Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I guess its not such a clear cut line, where God looks at the heart.

And there is no doubt that had I went through with what you did I might feel the same way. As I think I can say if anyone has walked in anyone else’s shoes that might change them. I truly respect your beliefs and I think you have been perhaps the most articulate and friendly I have discussed them with here.

The feeling is definitely mutual. 🙂

I believe there is an inherent goodness in most people and I don’t deny it could be from Christ but I see this same goodness in many who are not Christians.

Sure. I agree. Perhaps not on such a large scale though. Maybe I'm oblivious to them (which is quite possible taking into account the bucolic part of town I'm in), but I don't know of many non-Christians who have offered up their lives in a missionary-type endevour of selfless service.

I don’t believe in the “good things happen to good people” because many times, “bad things” happen as well for no apparent rhyme or reason.

I agree, but as a Christian I believe that these "bad things" would happen for a reason.
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

That sentence right there is exactly why I am agnostic.

I guess, when simplified, the only difference between our beliefs is that I believe that God has revealed Himself to us.

I just personally find faith in Christ to supply so many answers in life to questions that would otherwise have driven me crazy. 😵
Joe Fist
Troubador
Land of Fist
Joined
28 Sep '04
Moves
21779
26 Aug '05 16:032 edits
Originally posted by Halitose
Sorry for the long delays between posts, a combination of your questions being a lot of food for thought and lack of time...

My tonsils were about the size of two golf balls.

Ouch. Mine were taken out as a 4/5 year old kid, so all I can remember is the two days in hospital that felt like a month and of course that hideous gown that doesn' ...[text shortened]... ist to supply so many answers in life to questions that would otherwise have driven me crazy. 😵[/b]
Sorry for the long delays between posts, a combination of your questions being a lot of food for thought and lack of time...

Ditto but I have had the time just the amount of pain and pain medication I have been on has taken its toll.

Ouch. Mine were taken out as a 4/5 year old kid, so all I can remember is the two days in hospital that felt like a month and of course that hideous gown that doesn't quite close at the back.

Yeah everybody says it is a lot easier when you are a kid to have them out but hurt like Hell when you are grown up. I am almost 37 and the doctor told me it would take me at least 3 weeks to heal. I am also burnt out on eating ice cream too so I have been both in pain and hungry at the same time. I know, poor me.

I guess that is the only way to find out if His creation would truly serve Him, would be to put Adam and Eve in a situation where they get to choose.

Yeah but, again, we are God’s children and in essence they were practically “newborn”. If the above is correct then I think it was too big of a decision for two people to make with too dire of consequences. God knowingly put them into that situation.

I guess I can't directly answer this question, but I gonna try anyways. Imagine creating an entire universe, the nebulae, the planets, the stars, and then the whole raison d'être of it all: man. Placed in a beautiful paradise, surrounded by magnificent creatures, visited daily by God, man was a creature superior to the animals, with incredible capacity for reason, speech, emotion. A creature that God could enjoy to talk with and share His greatness. I believe that the Knowledge of Good and Evil would eventually have been granted to man when he was ready for it. It was not to be, man sinned and took what he was not ready for. Punished together with his descendants, man was cursed to a life of suffering. However, In His divine grace, God still reaches out to mankind.

Again, if I were God and in the above described scenario, the concept of evil would be kept to Myself and not my creation, man. But okay, let’s say I would give man the knowledge of Good and Evil? There would be no capacity in my creation of man for man to commit it. It would be the same as man unable to breathe without air. Man can think about not breathing but really is not capable of successfully stopping breathing. Man could think about evil but my creation of Man would make it physically impossible to commit any evil act. Funny thing is I think most sane, moral men (Christian and Non-Christian alike) are this way for the most part and do not commit evil.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

I don’t see the above quote as fair but I see it as very grim repercussions for a selfish mistake.

Sure. I tried to explain above that the conditions were a little more in mans favour than they might seem today. I guess by allowing something evil to happen, it doesn't mean God is putting his stamp of approval on it, He is allowing us to exercise our original freedom and will.

I guess I disagree. By God allowing for Evil to exist, then I think most definitely He has put his seal of approval on it. He has created all things, all conditions and, theoretically, He could wipe them out within a heartbeat. I am not implying that God necessarily enjoys “evil” but I honestly don’t think God considers or rewards good deeds more than bad deeds. While in one’s life, I admit it feels better to be kind to others and what not, there are many who tend to be the exception to the rule of living commonly considered decent lives and having the worst go of it. I’ve talked about this in another thread but I believe a person who is commonly considered as evil (i.e. Hitler, Pol Pot, Jeffrey Dalmer, Timothy McVey, etc) does not see themselves as evil but more so as a patriot of their “good cause” and they commit atrocious acts against humanity for their “cause”. Hitler thought the Jews were the anti-christ. If there were a race of people or a species today that we knew conclusively were the anti-christ (without any doubt) I imagine we would go after them much in the same manner Hitler did.

I believe every person has his/her moment of truth, his/her epiphany, whatever you wish to call it. It is a time in his/her life when God confronts them with a decision where they consciously decide whether they are going to serve God, submit to His will or turn their back on Him. Even after this God goes after His "lost sheep".

I think you are right but I think this epiphany does not necessarily only occur once but more so several perhaps many times in a person’s life. I think it is a moment of clarity and an often too quick of a glimpse of what is real in the world. It maybe God confronts his lost sheep or perhaps the sheep stare at themselves in the mirror. I think the most important thing is the self realization one has whether it is guided by God or not.

That is where I believe that an element of suffering comes in. Do you think anybody would even bother to think of God when everything is going well for them? Case in point being a rural community I visited this previous weekend while shooting footage for a AIDS awareness educational film. You must understand that these people have the bare minimum. Mud huts, no concrete floors, a hearth in the middle causing stalagtites of soot to form on the thatch roof. A simple grass mat for a bed. But since that is all they know, I guess one can say that those conditions are when things are going well.

Again you might be right but I think it is hard to make a blanket statement that people would abandon God when the world is perfect for them. I do think many do but I also think many abandon God in their darkest hour simply because they blame God for their darkest hour.

I called at the home/hut of grandmother of three. She had lost her 2 daughters to AIDS, and when she was diagnosed with HIV, her husband left her, although its suspected that he was the one who gave it to her in the first place. She had been an alcoholic prone to drunken nightly revelry with the local rastafarians. When I saw her last week, she was a different person. Crying tears, she thanked God for what He had done for her.

Okay but although I have not personally experienced this, I can imagine there are those in a similar situation to the grandmother (not just in Africa but maybe the US or wherever) that curse God for AIDS, her husband, alcohol, etc. I am not attempting to discount the revelation this woman seemed to have had but all of us could interpret the same situation differently.

I'm in no position to judge who will go to heaven or not. Allow me to quote some scripture as a pointer though:

Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

My interpretation: God will forgive all

Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. Psa 33:18 Behold, the eye of the LORD is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy;

My interpretation: God is watching those that both fear and respect Him. I don’t necessarily agree with that because I don’t think if God created us we are meant to live in fear of Him.

Psa 33:19 To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine. Psa 103:11 For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him. Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

My interpretation of the last part (Mat 5:3) is that blessed are those like me who do not attempt to comprehend God in any of the religions made known to man but hope for something better. I understand it could also mean blessed are those who are given a raw deal in life because they are going to Heaven.

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

My interpretation: Unless you look as God as a parent, you are not getting into Heaven. If that’s the case then I don’t know where I stand but I am not worried about it either.

I guess its not such a clear cut line, where God looks at the heart.

True but I am not really worried about it either because I believe it is not in any of our hands what happens to us. That doesn’t mean I go out and try to be a jerk to as many people as I can but I think there are a lot of folks who try to “buy” their way into Heaven and I can’t see that happening either.

Sure. I agree. Perhaps not on such a large scale though. Maybe I'm oblivious to them (which is quite possible taking into account the bucolic part of town I'm in), but I don't know of many non-Christians who have offered up their lives in a missionary-type endevour of selfless service.

Nor have I but does that mean because a person does not offer up their life as a missionary they are not a good person? I don’t think you were implying that but I am sure there has to be at least one firefighter, policeman, doctor, etc who happens to be atheist or agnostic. Isn’t what some of these people do an offering of self sacrifice for mankind?

I agree, but as a Christian I believe that these "bad things" would happen for a reason.
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

I think this is the roadblock for us for reasons we have went though here throughout this thread.