2012 NBA Playoffs

Originally posted by no1marauder
Maybe you didn't watch the playoffs, but KG played great. Pierce was a bit off, but still contributed and is only 34. In all probability, Allen will be gone.

While I'm very impressed with the Celtics' run to the Eastern finals, they are not a championship calliber team unless they get another big star. Garnett is in the downside (he'll hit 37 during next year's playoffs), Allen is likely gone and Pierce will be 35 next season. Rondo is essentially their only good young player and he's inconsistent.

They may win the Atlantic next year because of lack of competition in that division, but this kind of run (including the injuries to the Bulls) is not likely to repeat itself.

Originally posted by sh76
While I'm very impressed with the Celtics' run to the Eastern finals, they are not a championship calliber team unless they get another big star. Garnett is in the downside (he'll hit 37 during next year's playoffs), Allen is likely gone and Pierce will be 35 next season. Rondo is essentially their only good young player and he's inconsistent.

They may win t ...[text shortened]... but this kind of run (including the injuries to the Bulls) is not likely to repeat itself.

(Shrug) After next week, you'll be able to say every team but one isn't "championship caliber".

I don't think the Celts need another "big star". They could use some energetic young big men and maybe a couple of shooters. Rebounding has been a consistent problem with this team exacerbated by the foolish trade of Kendrick Perkins last year. And they just didn't score enough to eventually beat Miami though few would have expected them to take the Heat to 7 and be in the game in the fourth. MMM's prediction that the Celts won't be a factor for the next decade is, like most of his predictions, rather laughable.

Originally posted by no1marauder
(Shrug) After next week, you'll be able to say every team but one isn't "championship caliber".

I don't think the Celts need another "big star". They could use some energetic young big men and maybe a couple of shooters. Rebounding has been a consistent problem with this team exacerbated by the foolish trade of Kendrick Perkins last year. ...[text shortened]... 't be a factor for the next decade is, like most of his predictions, rather laughable.

I assume Ray Allen is gone next year. Is Paul Pierce still signed for next year?
I understand the Spurs are going to court KG, especially if Duncan decides to retire.
That leaves Rondo (and maybe Pierce) as the only threats Boston has. If KG is gone,
Boston will have to seriously re-tool that club. IMO

Originally posted by shortcircuit
I assume Ray Allen is gone next year. Is Paul Pierce still signed for next year?
I understand the Spurs are going to court KG, especially if Duncan decides to retire.
That leaves Rondo (and maybe Pierce) as the only threats Boston has. If KG is gone,
Boston will have to seriously re-tool that club. IMO

Pierce is signed for two more years. I don't think KG will leave, but if he does they'll obviously have a problem.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Pierce is signed for two more years. I don't think KG will leave, but if he does they'll obviously have a problem.

I guess KG's decision, if the reports are correct, is would he have a better chance at
a ring in San Antonio or in Boston. Rivers and Pop are both excellent coaches, so I
don't think that would be a determiner. It should be interesting this off season. I am
sure Pop would rather have Duncan back over KG, but who knows?

Originally posted by shortcircuit
I guess KG's decision, if the reports are correct, is would he have a better chance at
a ring in San Antonio or in Boston. Rivers and Pop are both excellent coaches, so I
don't think that would be a determiner. It should be interesting this off season. I am
sure Pop would rather have Duncan back over KG, but who knows?

Garnett's a beloved figure in Boston; it's hard to see him wanting to be Tim Duncan's doppelganger in San Antonio.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Garnett's a beloved figure in Boston; it's hard to see him wanting to be Tim Duncan's doppelganger in San Antonio.

It seems to me that LeBron James was revered as a god in Cleveland,
but he left for Miami and the chance to win a ring.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
It seems to me that LeBron James was revered as a god in Cleveland,
but he left for Miami and the chance to win a ring.

(Shrug) Garnett's already won a ring with the Celtics and I see no reason to believe that him replacing Duncan in San Antonio gives him a better chance to take a title than staying in Boston.

Originally posted by no1marauder
(Shrug) Garnett's already won a ring with the Celtics and I see no reason to believe that him replacing Duncan in San Antonio gives him a better chance to take a title than staying in Boston.

Well, even you must admit that San Antonio's supporting cast is better than Boston's

Originally posted by no1marauder
MMM's prediction that the Celts won't be a factor for the next decade is, like most of his predictions, rather laughable.

It typically takes a decade in the NBA to rebuild a team into a title contender, unless you get lucky through the NBA draft and pick up a marquee player. Most teams throughout NBA history have followed this trend. One franchise that bucked the trend, ironically, was the Celtics who were title contenders for three decades. The Celtics, however, were very fortunate in the NBA draft where they picked up studs like Jo Jo White, Dave Cowens, Larry Bird, and Kevin McHale. As history shows, the Celtics's luck is rare indeed.

It doesn't look good for the current Celtics. The Big 3 are just about done in their respective careers. Pierce has one year left on his contract, while the other two might not even resign next season. All of the Big 3 are in the twilight of their careers and a traditional 82 game schedule certainly won't help them next year. Further, the current Celtics team is not built to beat the Heat. It is of no consequence that the Celtics took the Heat to seven games this year since Bosh did not play for the majority of the series. If Bosh had been healthy, the series probably would not have been as competitive. Given this, the Celtics appear to be at the end of their title run.

The Celtics's could possibly retool and maintain their current status as title contenders. However, that would require one of two things to happen.

First, Rondo would have to develop a jumpshot on par with his contemporaries (CP3, D-Will, and Westbrook) that would in turn allow him to close for the Celtics and take pressure off of the Big 3. Rondo, however, is 26 years old and players typically reach their peak at that age. It is doubtful that Rondo will be able to develop an adequate jumpshot in time.

Second, the Celtics could try to surround Rondo with elite sharpshooters in an attempt to recreate the "Big 3" model. Names that come to mind are Eric Gordon, O.J. Mayo, Michael Beasley, and James Harden. The problem will be attracting players of that caliber to the Celtics. There is also a question as to whether there are any players who could recreate what the Big 3 did. KG was one of the best defenders of his generation, while Pierce and Allen made numerous clutch shots throughout their run. It is doubtful that the Celtics will be able to find and sign players of the Big 3's caliber.

In sum, it is doubtful that the Celtics will be able to retool to maintain their status as title contenders. Therefore, it will probably be another decade or so before the Celtics are relevant again (relevant meaning title contenders), unless, of course, they get lucky in the draft.

Originally posted by MoneyManMike
It typically takes a decade in the NBA to rebuild a team into a title contender, unless you get lucky through the NBA draft and pick up a marquee player. Most teams throughout NBA history have followed this trend. One franchise that bucked the trend, ironically, was the Celtics who were title contenders for three decades. The Celtics, however, were v ...[text shortened]... gain (relevant meaning title contenders), unless, of course, they get lucky in the draft.

MMM: It is of no consequence that the Celtics took the Heat to seven games this year since Bosh did not play for the majority of the series. If Bosh had been healthy, the series probably would not have been as competitive.

😴😴

What would have happened if O'Neal, Wilcox and Bradley had been healthy? The Heat could barely contain Garnett if the Celts had a couple more effective big men Miami would have been in trouble. I dare say that if we hadn't thrown away Perkins that the results both this year AND last year may have been different.

If KG stays the Celts don't need to retool. Bradley is an adequate replacement for Allen; Rondo is now arguably the best point guard in the league and Pierce, if healthy, can still be a top 15 scorer. They need help rebounding and could use an aggressive young big man but those are out there esp. with the freeing up of cap space letting Ray go will give them.

Originally posted by no1marauder
MMM: It is of no consequence that the Celtics took the Heat to seven games this year since Bosh did not play for the majority of the series. If Bosh had been healthy, the series probably would not have been as competitive.

😴😴

What would have happened if O'Neal, Wilcox and Bradley had been healthy? The Heat could barely contain Garnett ...[text shortened]... but those are out there esp. with the freeing up of cap space letting Ray go will give them.

What would have happened if O'Neal, Wilcox and Bradley had been healthy?

O'Neal played last year against the Heat and the Celtics lost in 5. O'Neal is basically a scrub big man at this point in his career. He plays like he is older than KG. Wilcox is a scrub big man as well. Why are you overrating them?

As for Bradley, he is undersized and unproven. It is definitely a stretch to argue that he is an adequate replacement for Ray Allen. It is arguable that Allen actually made the Celtics title contenders. How many improbable shots did Allen make in the playoffs that helped the Celtics win games that they should have lost? It is certainly questionable whether the Celtics would have gotten past the Bulls in 2009 without Allen. Can Bradley emulate Allen's timely shot making? Probably not.

They need help rebounding and could use an aggressive young big man but those are out there esp. with the freeing up of cap space letting Ray go will give them.

Which big man available this summer will give you the best chance to get past the Heat? http://www.hoopsworld.com/2012-nba-free-agents

I would say Michael Beasley or an improved JaVale McGee could give you a good shot at taking on the Heat one last time. However, signing either of those players is a stretch.

Additions of Kris Humphries, Jason Thompson, or Marreese Speights won't be enough. Those players will give you about the same production as Glen Davis and Brandon Bass gave you.

Rondo is now arguably the best point guard in the league and Pierce, if healthy, can still be a top 15 scorer.

Again, Rondo would be the best point guard only if he had a jumpshot on par with the other top point guards in the league. Rondo is a system player. He is only great because he is surrounded by great shot makers. If Rondo wasn't system player, then he would have been picked for Team USA over Rose and Westbrook during the 2010 FIBA Championship. He wasn't because he needs to be surrounded by shooters to be effective. If Rondo wants to move to the next level, he needs to drastically improve his jumpshot.

As for Pierce, even if he can maintain his spot as a top 15 scorer at the tender age of 35, two playoff appearances versus the Heat have proven that that is not enough to get to the Finals.

"And so it begins...

The journey, the destination, the dream...

You have lived your life for this one moment...

A chance to march into the pantheon of greatness where a legacy of champions awaits.

Welcome to the NBA Finals." 😀

Originally posted by MoneyManMike
[b]What would have happened if O'Neal, Wilcox and Bradley had been healthy?

O'Neal played last year against the Heat and the Celtics lost in 5. O'Neal is basically a scrub big man at this point in his career. He plays like he is older than KG. Wilcox is a scrub big man as well. Why are you overrating them?

As for Bradley, he is undersized ...[text shortened]... off appearances versus the Heat have proven that that is not enough to get to the Finals.[/b]

Your anti-Celtic bias makes your posts a joke. Chris Wilcox would have eaten Haslem and Anthony alive; he got in only 28 games for the Celts, but hit almost 60% of his shots and 5.5 points and 4.5 rebounds in only 17 minutes PG. Are you claiming he wouldn't have been a big improvement over Stiesma and Hollins? If so, that gets a well-deserved: LMAO!

Jermaine O'Neal is well past his prime, but he was a starter on the Heat just two years ago! The question is whether he is better than Stiesma and Hollins not whether he's Dwight Howard. Since the answer to that question is obviously "yes" his presence would have helped the Celtics.

Bradley shot almost 50% from the field this year, 40% from 3-pt Land and played stifling pressure defense. He's a better player than Allen NOW which is the point not what Ray has achieved in the past.

Most "systems" reward point guards who are the best passers in the league as Rondo is now. His jumper is getting better every year. He wasn't picked for the 2010 FIBA Championship team? Who gives a rat's a**? And your "logic" was he wasn't because that team didn't have sufficient shooters? That's almost the stupidest thing you've ever said here and that's saying something.

There's plenty of talented young big men out there and free agency isn't the only way to get them. I expect the Celts to make some moves that will assure they will remain contenders. A 7 game series loss to the Heat doesn't lead to the conclusion that they are going to have a decade of non-contention except in the most biased of Celtic hater minds.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Your anti-Celtic bias makes your posts a joke. Chris Wilcox would have eaten Haslem and Anthony alive; he got in only 28 games for the Celts, but hit almost 60% of his shots and 5.5 points and 4.5 rebounds in only 17 minutes PG. Are you claiming he wouldn't have been a big improvement over Stiesma and Hollins? If so, that gets a well-deserved: LMAO!

...[text shortened]... a decade of non-contention except in the most biased of Celtic hater minds.

Chris Wilcox would have eaten Haslem and Anthony alive...

Wow, do you even watch the games? There is a reason why Chris Wilcox has been on 5 teams over his 12 year career. He is a serviceable big man who you can play if your starting frontcourt is injured or in foul trouble. He is not a star player or the answer to your problems with the Heat. Has Wilcox historically eaten Haslem alive? No!

Haslem v. Wilcox Head 2 Head Statistics
Player | G | W | L | GS | MP | FG | FGA | FG% | RB | AST | BLK | PTS
Haslem | 14 | 12 | 2 | 11 | 33.6 | 4.3 | 8.9 | .480 | 9 | 1.2 | .1 | 11.1
Wilcox | 14 | 2 | 12 | 8 | 21.7 | 3.5 | 6.4 | .544 | 4.8 | .7 | .3 | 8.1

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=hasleud01&p2=wilcoch01

Notice how both players' production are around their career averages. In other words, no one was being eaten alive.

Jermaine O'Neal is well past his prime, but he was a starter on the Heat just two years ago! The question is whether he is better than Stiesma and Hollins not whether he's Dwight Howard.

Actually Stiesma or Hollins would be more effective against the speed and athleticism of the Heat. O'Neal has been relegated to a mere jumpshooter (and a poor one at that). Lebron and Wade would of had a field day in the paint if O'Neal had played.

Bradley shot almost 50% from the field this year, 40% from 3-pt Land and played stifling pressure defense. He's a better player than Allen NOW which is the point not what Ray has achieved in the past.

Yet Bradley only shot .368% from the field and .227% from three in the playoffs when it matters. Yes...he is clearly better than Allen. lmao. 🙄

[Rondo's] jumper is getting better every year. He wasn't picked for the 2010 FIBA Championship team? Who gives a rat's a**? And your "logic" was he wasn't because that team didn't have sufficient shooters?

You can tell how good a shooter a player is by looking at their free throw percentage. Rondo's FT% has stayed consistently low for a guard. Although he can make a jumper from time to time, he is obviously a below average shooter. As the Heat demonstrated, the Celtics's offense can be stifled in crunch time if you deny the Big 3 the ball and force Rondo to take a jumper.

Team USA's offense was distinct from the Celtics's offense. Although Team USA's roster included great, young shooters, the focal point of the offense was for Rose and Westbrook to drive to the rim and kick to an open shooter if necessary. The Celtics's offense, on the other hand, is geared around getting open looks for the Big 3 rather than having Rondo play pick and roll all day. Rondo was not picked for Team USA because Rose and Westbrook are better individual players than Rondo. Team USA needed a scoring point guard to anchor the offense, and Rondo just wasn't good enough for a spot on the team (and still isn't).

There's plenty of talented young big men out there and free agency isn't the only way to get them.

And which one would be able to push you past the Heat?

A 7 game series loss to the Heat doesn't lead to the conclusion that they are going to have a decade of non-contention except in the most biased of Celtic hater minds.

Obviously I did not make that argument. I clearly have made more points as to why the Celtics are at the end of their title run. Your over reliance on the strawman argument and ad hominem attack is getting old.