All Hail Jacques Kallis, Best All Rounder

Originally posted by buffalobill
Harldy electifying he says - four of the top five were attacking batsmen. We can debate a World XI but because of isolation only one is a definite must-have and that's Graeme Pollock.

How long was the ban BB?
Electricity comes at both sides of the game.. watching Marshall Garner and Ambrose banging the ball into a well grassed pitch zinging the ball past batsmens ears and snapping wickets with the next ball.. amazing stuff. I enjoy batsmen who are prepared to loft the ball over a sharp in-field and hook the next ball for six.. Kirsten was an accumulator like Alan Border..but well short of Border's class. I could watch them all day but rarely leave the seat and jump up and down.
I do know Pollack was in the style of Greg Chappell and Martin Crowe even Glen Turner but as you say we were starved of watching them so they never had a chance to be my childhood favs lol..
Boycott and John Snow were tops when I was a kid in England.. Snow never quite made it and Boycott was selfish.

Originally posted by buffalobill
Harldy electifying he says - four of the top five were attacking batsmen. We can debate a World XI but because of isolation only one is a definite must-have and that's Graeme Pollock.

It's no use Will, these guys don't even recognize a legend being born in front of their eyes in the form of JK, always hunkering to the days past.
I don't understand this.

'But in the old days there were more bouncers' etc. etc. ad nauseum. The game changes boys - it's becoming more difficult to score runs, bowlers and fielders are in better shape, batsmen are video-analyzed for weaknesses. Players are professionals now.

Cricket is a game of individual statistics and JK's speaks volumes. He is the best all-rounder of all time.

Thanks for your time.

Originally posted by Tirau Dan
How long was the ban BB?
Electricity comes at both sides of the game.. watching Marshall Garner and Ambrose banging the ball into a well grassed pitch zinging the ball past batsmens ears and snapping wickets with the next ball.. amazing stuff. I enjoy batsmen who are prepared to loft the ball over a sharp in-field and hook the next ball for six.. Kirsten ...[text shortened]... Snow were tops when I was a kid in England.. Snow never quite made it and Boycott was selfish.

Will didn't say that was a team comprised of better individual players - he said it would be team that could take on any team you proposed.

Originally posted by Crowley
Will didn't say that was a team comprised of better individual players - he said it would be team that could take on any team you proposed.

I just can't in all honesty see the SA team stacking up to a decent pace attack.

Originally posted by Tirau Dan
I just can't in all honesty see the SA team stacking up to a decent pace attack.

Well, enlighten us TD. Why in the hell not?

Spin might stop most SA sides in their tracks, but we've always been pretty decent against any kind of pace attack.

Originally posted by Crowley
It's no use Will, these guys don't even recognize a legend being born in front of their eyes in the form of JK, always hunkering to the days past.
I don't understand this.

'But in the old days there were more bouncers' etc. etc. ad nauseum. The game changes boys - it's becoming more difficult to score runs, bowlers and fielders are in better shape, bats ...[text shortened]... nd JK's speaks volumes. He is the best all-rounder of all time.

Thanks for your time.

For the third time I recognize the merits of JK, best today a legend even but in my book he'd rate after those already mentioned.

As for the rest of your statement about players from the past.. the fact remained that they played on bumpy surfaces, the bowling was faster and body line was legal. A prime Bradman or Sobers today would still take the world of cricket and shake it today.

The way you put ppl down makes issues not worthy of debate when you continue to use your increasingly aloof insulting tone.

For goodness sake man their is no harm in extolling patriotism but you take things too far.

Originally posted by Tirau Dan
For the third time I recognize the merits of JK, best today a legend even but in my book he'd rate after those already mentioned.

As for the rest of your statement about players from the past.. the fact remained that they played on bumpy surfaces, the bowling was faster and body line was legal. A prime Bradman or Sobers today would still take the worl ...[text shortened]...

For goodness sake man their is no harm in extolling patriotism but you take things too far.

And for the third time I'm going to say there are many other factors today that makes scoring runs more difficult than a decade or two ago.
Sure, the bowling was different, but fielding is much better now and bowlers are just as good.

Cricket is a game of stats. His stats are the best and he still has a few seasons in him before retiring.
How many more wickets and runs does he need top score to get over this imagined skill chasm you've created to protect the 'old guys'?


I'm not being aloof or condescending - I'm just very confident.

Originally posted by Tirau Dan
A prime Bradman or Sobers today would still take the world of cricket and shake it today.

Just highlighting this point:

Bradman played in an era when running after a ball on it's way to the boundary was unheard of, players rarely dived anywhere (that would dirty his whites and he just fixed his hair).
How many of his runs would be stopped today if he had to bat against the SA or Aus side?

The same counts for Sobers, to a degree.

Do you see my point now? A direct comparison is impossible, all we have is statistical records.
I rest my case.

Originally posted by Crowley
Just highlighting this point:

Bradman played in an era when running after a ball on it's way to the boundary was unheard of, players rarely dived anywhere (that would dirty his whites and he just fixed his hair).
How many of his runs would be stopped today if he had to bat against the SA or Aus side?

The same counts for Sobers, to a degree.

Do you ...[text shortened]... nt now? A direct comparison is impossible, all we have is statistical records.
I rest my case.

I do see your point but disagree.

Yes the idea of comparing the likes of W.C.Grace is extreme.. granted but having watched endless footage of The Don facing all sorts of bowling.. some very ordinary but some very fast and very dangerous he was the all time greatest.

When bodyline came the guy simply stood his ground and whacked the fast bouncers out of the paddock while his team mates received broken bones. Don Bradman practised cricket for hours every day of his life until he retired. To top it off he was a humble gentleman who shared his love of the game with all who asked.

Sobers, like Greg Chappell and Pollack were not only gap pickers with an ability to drive a ball to the boundary at speed, they invented the lofted chip shot over the in field as well being explosive over the top for six. They would excel today on the tame pitches with the height limits on bowling today.

When assessing a batsman of any era you have to look at who they faced and where. In the context of the current discussion I raised the bodyline issue and asked have any of the new breed faced the likes of Marshall, Amrose etc on a dirt track or a well grassed seaming wicket. There isn't any doubt at all that they were the best fast bowlers of all time. Any batsman likes to face the best bowling...

Cricket since the bouncers were curtailed has degenerated into a boring batting orientated game so much so that they now shorten it yet again to a 3 hour game... what next lycra uniforms?

Originally posted by Tirau Dan
I do see your point but disagree.

Yes the idea of comparing the likes of W.C.Grace is extreme.. granted but having watched endless footage of The Don facing all sorts of bowling.. some very ordinary but some very fast and very dangerous he was the all time greatest.

When bodyline came the guy simply stood his ground and whacked the fast bouncers ...[text shortened]... ame so much so that they now shorten it yet again to a 3 hour game... what next lycra uniforms?

Sure, Bradman was great. I've not seen extensive footage of him playing, just a few documentaries.
Whether he was really as great as his average suggests is beside the point here - We are talking about all rounders.


OK, one thing I will concede. Maybe Kallis has not surpassed the influence/impact Sobers had on games he played in.
I will ask you again, what more must Kallis do to become the greatest? Because if Kallis can not be considered the greatest now, he must surely be a close second. The stats prove it. Kallis and Sobers are in a league of their own. The other contenders just don't get close - even with your perceived 'venomous' bowling factor.

I think Kallis is better - you say Sobers.
One thing you have not taken into consideration is the fact that you point out different pitches and types of bowling employed in the 'old days'.
What you are doing then is pointing out how amazing Kallis' 219 wickets is compared to Sobers' 235.
So, Sobers bowled on gravel roads and could only amass a paltry 235 wickets, whereas Kallis has to bowl on tame things that looked like highways, but has managed to scalp 219 victims.

This makes Kallis a much better bowler than Sobers was...
Interesting, no?

Originally posted by Tirau Dan
How long was the ban BB?
Electricity comes at both sides of the game.. watching Marshall Garner and Ambrose banging the ball into a well grassed pitch zinging the ball past batsmens ears and snapping wickets with the next ball.. amazing stuff. I enjoy batsmen who are prepared to loft the ball over a sharp in-field and hook the next ball for six.. Kirsten Snow were tops when I was a kid in England.. Snow never quite made it and Boycott was selfish.

The rebel tours don't count, so it was over 20 year. The '69 thrashing of Bill Lawrie's Aussies was the last official Test cricket until reintroduction.
Ah yes, the thrill and zing. I well remember a Saturday in November 1992 at the Wanderers and India batting. Donald was in full song and bowling at full pace. Richardson was standing almost a full wicket length behind the stumps and taking the ball above his head. Pure thrills and a 19 year old Tendulkar scored 111 out of a team total of 227.
When you talk of Kirsten, which one do you speak of? Gary or Peter who as I said, was the more gifted?
Repear after me ... it's Pollock.

Originally posted by Crowley
Sure, Bradman was great. I've not seen extensive footage of him playing, just a few documentaries.
Whether he was really as great as his average suggests is beside the point here - We are talking about all rounders.


OK, one thing I will concede. Maybe Kallis has not surpassed the [b]influence/impact Sobers had on games he played in.
I will ask yo ...[text shortened]... victims.

This makes Kallis a much better bowler than Sobers was...
Interesting, no?[/b]

Okay if it is stats and on this occasion I'll play your game and stick to modern players. So lets go to the gurus at Wisden 2000-2007

To rate in my book as a great all rounder the man must have an ability to devastate with bat and ball. Kallis in the ten wicket bags? He's off the chart. He would need to be on it to rate in my book as a bowler.
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/bowling/most_10wm_career.html?class=1;id=200;type=decade

Here's Wisden's Cricketinfo assessment which has Kallis at #6. http://content-www.cricinfo.com/allrounder/content/story/genre.html?genre=202 They say as I am trying to that he is a batsman but is not a match winning bowler so they hold him back at #6. But you mustn't take it to heart because #6 in this company (especially as he has years to play) is marvellous

When picking my team I used Sobers as a batsman and had the four top fast bowlers, the best spinner and reply on Sobers to do a bit with Warne.

Originally posted by Tirau Dan
Okay if it is stats and on this occasion I'll play your game and stick to modern players. So lets go to the gurus at Wisden 2000-2007

To rate in my book as a great all rounder the man must have an ability to devastate with bat and ball. Kallis in the ten wicket bags? He's off the chart. He would need to be on it to rate in my book as a bowler.
http://s had the four top fast bowlers, the best spinner and reply on Sobers to do a bit with Warne.

LOL
Do you even read these pages you so gleefully reference?

The list there has Kallis at 6, but it's a readers poll, so again, it's something emotional, voted on by people like you who seemingly disregard the black on white proof.
I want cold, hard stats.
LOL, Imran Khan no.1 all rounder of all time? Don't make me fall off my chair laughing. Obviously half of Pakistan voted while we were all asleep. Surely even you can see what a farce that was!

Kallis isn't a frontline bowler. He's a batting all rounder, so he hasn't taken a tenner.
Sobers didn't take a 10 wicket haul either, so his bowling doesn't count in your reckoning either?
Kallis has better career bests of 6/54 & 9/92 than Sobers' 6/73 & 8/80. Not to bad if you consider how easy batsmen has it in these times when Kallis is bowling...

Sorry buddy, but you just can't make up the rules about what constitutes a great all rounder as we go along here.
Maybe if you spend a few more hours on the cricinfo site, you will find some strange stat that proves some menial point of yours.

Me, I have a clear head. On paper, Kallis has scored more runs and almost as many wickets as Sobers - the only player in the same league as him.
If he can stay fit for a few more years, he could become the top test run scorer of all time, although Ponting, Tendulkar and Dravid may not allow him that honor.
He's going to take a few more wickets - hopefully getting to 300. Maybe, maybe not, but he's going to definitely pass Sobers.


Soooo, any other 'references' you want to throw at me? This is fun, almost like clay-pigeon shooting!

Originally posted by Crowley
LOL
Do you even read these pages you so gleefully reference?

The list there has Kallis at 6, but it's a readers poll, so again, it's something emotional, voted on by people like you who seemingly disregard the black on white proof.
I want cold, hard stats.
LOL, Imran Khan no.1 all rounder of all time? Don't make me fall off my chair laughing. Obviou eferences' you want to throw at me? This is fun, almost like clay-pigeon shooting!

Okay Stats from the ICC:

Current Top Batsmen:
http://www.lgiccrankings.com/test/batting/rankings.php
Kallis #2 after Ponting

Current top bowlers:
http://www.lgiccrankings.com/test/bowling/rankings.php
Kallis #22

Current ICC all-rounder ranking: http://www.lgiccrankings.com/test/all-rounder/rankings.php
Kallis top today..

The ICC Best ever batsman rankings:
http://www.lgiccrankings.com/test/batting/all-time-ranking.php
Kallis #15

The ICC Best ever Bowlers:
http://www.lgiccrankings.com/test/bowling/all-time-ranking.php
Kallis not in the top 100

I don't think the last two warrant Mr Kallis a place in a best ever squad.

Can you take this from the ICC or are you continuing your patriotic SA obsessiveness.

edit I'm done talking to this thread If you want kallis for Pope it's fine by me...

Originally posted by Crowley
LOL
Do you even read these pages you so gleefully reference?

The list there has Kallis at 6, but it's a readers poll, so again, it's something emotional, voted on by people like you who seemingly disregard the black on white proof.
I want cold, hard stats.
LOL, Imran Khan no.1 all rounder of all time? Don't make me fall off my chair laughing. Obviou ...[text shortened]... eferences' you want to throw at me? This is fun, almost like clay-pigeon shooting!

O please. what you talking about!

The best TEST all rounder (not in any particular order) would have to be IMRAN KHAN, IAN BOTHAM, GARY SOBERS, KAPIL DEV, RICHARD HARDLEE.

no one comes anywhere near them in the record books.

I dont know how old you are Crowley, but if you had seen the above players play in real life you would know what i mean. I have seen all the above with the exception of Sobers who had retried when i become interest in cricket.

However, i will say that at present Kallis is the best allrounder in test cricket, and can be mentioned with the above. But no way is he a better allrounder then Imran Khan, Kepil dev and Botham