1. Joined
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    31 Jul '09 19:571 edit
    No one's posted anything about the news that they both were said to be on a list of players testing positive for steroids in 2003.

    Then again, there is nothing even remotely shocking about this, so I perfectly understand the apathy.
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    31 Jul '09 20:32
    I certainly hope that all "cheaters" such as Manny and Ortiz are never honored by being inducted into the Hall of Fame.
  3. Joined
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    01 Aug '09 00:302 edits
    Originally posted by quackquack
    I certainly hope that all "cheaters" such as Manny and Ortiz are never honored by being inducted into the Hall of Fame.
    One aye for that. There's quite a bit of Manny Rmz fatigue. David Ortiz, too. His rambling press conference the other day was that of a clearly dishonest SOB. Not a RedSox fan necessarily but have always loved Boston. The very thought that their fabled 2003 come from behind ALCS against the Yankees was tainted sickens me! One of history's greatest comebacks and biggest chokes forever now in doubt. Not that the Yankees didn't have player or more on steroids as well. The whole bloody sport is a mess indeed.
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    01 Aug '09 19:13
    It is not just baseball that has steriods. It is inconceivable to me that football and baketball and other sports with an even larger premium on strnegth and speed don't have even more performance enhancing users.
  5. Joined
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    01 Aug '09 21:25
    Originally posted by quackquack
    It is not just baseball that has steriods. It is inconceivable to me that football and baketball and other sports with an even larger premium on strnegth and speed don't have even more performance enhancing users.
    You are absolutely right. Yet strength seems to be such a huge factor in baseball because of the added speed steroids create. WE all know about track and field and the horrible issues there. My little boy did a special project on Marion Jones, got an A. Put his whole heart and soul into researching and developed a deep admiration for her. He was really crushed when the steroids abuse was uncovered and subsequent prison sentence for her ws handed down. Steroids are the sports scourge of our time.
  6. Joined
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    03 Aug '09 13:30
    Originally posted by quackquack
    It is not just baseball that has steriods. It is inconceivable to me that football and baketball and other sports with an even larger premium on strnegth and speed don't have even more performance enhancing users.
    I agree -- because of the recent crackdowns, baseball is probably MUCH cleaner today than basketball and football.
  7. Joined
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    03 Aug '09 13:352 edits
    Originally posted by quackquack
    I certainly hope that all "cheaters" such as Manny and Ortiz are never honored by being inducted into the Hall of Fame.
    Hall of Fame selections over the next 20 years or so will be VERY interesting to watch. So many of the mega-stars probably won't get in. Will lesser (but presumably clean) players get in instead? -- or will there be a lot of years where no one gets inducted.

    There may also be concern that someone will get inducted, only to later be shown to have used steroids. If I had a ballot, I would wait a number of years before voting for even the "cleanest" players from this era, just to make absolutely sure.

    What if Rickey Henderson, now "safely in the Hall" was to announce that he frequently used steroids, especially that year when he stole 130 bases?
  8. Madison Square Garde
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    03 Aug '09 21:31
    Originally posted by Melanerpes
    Hall of Fame selections over the next 20 years or so will be VERY interesting to watch. So many of the mega-stars probably won't get in. Will lesser (but presumably clean) players get in instead? -- or will there be a lot of years where no one gets inducted.

    There may also be concern that someone will get inducted, only to later be shown to have used s ...[text shortened]... to announce that he frequently used steroids, especially that year when he stole 130 bases?
    They will all get in, except the liars. Bank on it.
  9. Joined
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    03 Aug '09 21:481 edit
    Originally posted by YEAH BOY
    They will all get in, except the liars. Bank on it.
    But of all the cheaters, who has NOT been lying? Have any HOF-caliber players gone forward voluntarily to confess about anything illegal that they've done?
  10. Joined
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    04 Aug '09 15:13
    Originally posted by Melanerpes
    Hall of Fame selections over the next 20 years or so will be VERY interesting to watch. So many of the mega-stars probably won't get in. Will lesser (but presumably clean) players get in instead? -- or will there be a lot of years where no one gets inducted.

    There may also be concern that someone will get inducted, only to later be shown to have used s ...[text shortened]... to announce that he frequently used steroids, especially that year when he stole 130 bases?
    I agree that it will be real interesting to watch the balloting in the future and unfortunately I think eventually they will let people in like Bonds (arguing he was a Hall of Famer before he cheated) -- of course know one knows for certain when he started cheating).
    I have heard a lot of people say that once they find out that they accidentally induct one know steriod user than all steriod users will be admitted. I hope that isn't true; one bad selection should not justify multiple other bad decisions.
    None of the players have admitted anything until after they were caught and really only to mitigate damages. In fact the stories you get are pretty funny: Andy Pettitte and say "I only used it twice" or Bonds "i thought it was flack seed oil" or Clemens "I have no idea how my DNA got on that syringe' or Ortiz "no one ever told me that I tested positive" or Sheffield "Bonds told me it would help me"
  11. Joined
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    04 Aug '09 15:392 edits
    If I had a ballot, one of the major factors would be how these tainted players deal with their transgressions. I would look favorably on players who genuinely admitted that they did something wrong, and who took action to make things right (such as devoting a lot of time to warning young people to stay away from these substances). Right now, almost no one has done any of these things unless absolutely forced to by the circumstances.

    I would look extremely favorably on someone like Canseco who blew the lid off the whole thing with his book in 2005. He openly discussed his own steroid use, he named names, he offended a lot of people, and he almost single-handedly forced major league baseball to deal with the problem. I would seriously consider voting for him. If not for his courage, nothing would have changed.

    If Bonds gets in the HOF, it will only be because every other cheater with HOF stats has already gotten in. I don't think very many writers liked the guy personally, and he became the poster child for the entire era. He took the most "sacred" of all baseball records and turned into a big ugly asterisk. It will take a lot of contrition from Bonds, and a long time before the writers forgive him
  12. Joined
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    04 Aug '09 16:22
    While, I'd sooner put Canseco in the Hall than Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, McGwire etc., it is not like Canseco is an innocent crusader. In fact I'd argue that if Canseco must be enshrined that his plaque should recognize him as baseball's biggest drug pusher of all time. Much of his first hand knowledge is due to the fact that he encouraged and facilitated their use directly with teammates and indirectly by popularizing superhuman speed and power (40/40 club). Furthermore, Canseco only talks cryptically (tell us which Hall of Famer used steriods not that a Hall of Famer used steriods). He could be far more useful if he gave all his information to authorities (instead of making one or two claims in each new book) Canseco also only talks because he feels baseball black balled him and he seems to love the attention and money that it gives him.
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    04 Aug '09 16:39
    agreed.

    That's why I would insist that his HOF plaque be put in a separate "asterisk room".

    Hmm...that's an idea. The HOF could set up a special asterisk wing for those stars who benefitted from illegal activity, or in some way compromised the integrity of the game. All the steroid & HGH users would go there, as would people like Gaylord Perry (and others who used spitballs illegally) and Pete Rose. This would allow us to recognize the on-field achievements of these players while also acknowledging the damages they wrought.
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    04 Aug '09 16:53
    I think the asterisk room would be very popular and likely will happen. I however would be strongly against it as I would not honor a cheater. There should be no honors for guys like Sosa (he struggled early in his career and then with performance enhancer hits more homeruns than Mickey Mantle). Steriod users took away the jobs of all the defensive players and base hit hitters who contributions were dwarfed by these cheaters. They already won their MVP, make their money. We should do the one thing we can do now; not recongnize their tainted accomplishments.

    The Dodgers did not even cancel Manny Ramirez bobble head day in the year in gets suspended. So I am guessing that despite my preferences, Bonds plaque will hang between the BALCO and Clemens plaque.
  15. Joined
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    04 Aug '09 20:08
    Originally posted by quackquack
    I think the asterisk room would be very popular and likely will happen. I however would be strongly against it as I would not honor a cheater. There should be no honors for guys like Sosa (he struggled early in his career and then with performance enhancer hits more homeruns than Mickey Mantle). Steriod users took away the jobs of all the defensive pla ...[text shortened]... essing that despite my preferences, Bonds plaque will hang between the BALCO and Clemens plaque.
    I wonder -- how many players would want to be in the HOF if it meant that they had to go into a shameful "asterisk room"?

    Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro, Ramirez, A-Rod, Ortiz, Sheffield, Rose, the entire 1919 Black Sox team, etc

    a whole row of plaques underneath a huge asterisk - and on their plaques, instead of their accomplishments, there'd be a detailed listing of their disgrace(s).
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