Eli now top 3 QB?

Originally posted by no1marauder
sh76: Again, this is not for careers, but for right now, at this moment.

I was going by that criteria when I judged those three QBs "close" to Eli. Trent Dilfer won a Super Bowl and Dan Marino didn't; was Dilfer a better QB?

Of course Trent Dilfer was better than Dan Marino, everybody know that. Dan Marino should die of gonorrhea and rot in hell. Seriously, though, Eli was the MVP in both super bowls he won. That has to count for something, doesn't it?

Originally posted by dryhump
Of course Trent Dilfer was better than Dan Marino, everybody know that. Dan Marino should die of gonorrhea and rot in hell. Seriously, though, Eli was the MVP in both super bowls he won. That has to count for something, doesn't it?

Why should it? I stated 4 years ago that Justin Tuck should have been the MVP in the first Giant win over the Pats (hey I read a few weeks ago that someone as influential as Ron Jaworski agrees with me!) as it was the dominant defense that was the greatest factor in that win and Tuck was the best player on that defense in the game. Eli probably deserved the MVP this time (though surely Nicks and Manningham had to be considered) but still the Giant offense though they gained a lot of yards managed to score only one legit TD against a weak Pat defense.

Eli is a vastly improved QB beyond question; for most of his career I'd have rated him no better than average with a penchant for turning the ball over. Still, I just don't think he breaks into the top echelon; you rarely see him light up a defense in a win like the top QBs do.

Eli is definitely the best in crunch time. None of the others come eve close. All mentioned are very good in their systems and have a great player-coach relationship. Brady has never been the same since the knee blow out in 08 following the loss to Eli. Eli certainly has Brady's number as to the G-men have the Patriots' number in general. I would love for the Cowboys to have any of the above mentioned QB's!

Originally posted by scacchipazzo
Eli is definitely the best in crunch time. None of the others come eve close. All mentioned are very good in their systems and have a great player-coach relationship. Brady has never been the same since the knee blow out in 08 following the loss to Eli. Eli certainly has Brady's number as to the G-men have the Patriots' number in general. I would love for the Cowboys to have any of the above mentioned QB's!

News flash!!!
Jerry Jones announces today that the Dallas Cowboys have made a change at QB.

In response to fan pleas, the Cowboys today coaxed Trent Dilfer from retirement to lead them.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Why should it? I stated 4 years ago that Justin Tuck should have been the MVP in the first Giant win over the Pats (hey I read a few weeks ago that someone as influential as Ron Jaworski agrees with me!) as it was the dominant defense that was the greatest factor in that win and Tuck was the best player on that defense in the game. Eli probably deserved ...[text shortened]... eaks into the top echelon; you rarely see him light up a defense in a win like the top QBs do.

I don't think it's quite fair to take that second TD away from Eli. Yes, the Pats lets them walk in, but he'd driven to the 5 yard line and it's fairly likely they would have scored anyway, had they needed to.

In both games, when all the chips were down, Eli took his team the length of the field to win the game. He carved up the Packers a few weeks back (though he admittedly was stymied by SF).

I can understand taking Brady ahead of Eli, but I completely disagree about Roethlisberger. This year, Manning threw for almost 900 more yards and 8 more touchdowns than Ben. Plus, Big Ben lost in the first round this year while Eli won a SB when all 4 of Eli's games were against tougher opponents than Denver.

Originally posted by sh76
I don't think it's quite fair to take that second TD away from Eli. Yes, the Pats lets them walk in, but he'd driven to the 5 yard line and it's fairly likely they would have scored anyway, had they needed to.

In both games, when all the chips were down, Eli took his team the length of the field to win the game. He carved up the Packers a few weeks back (tho ...[text shortened]... ar while Eli won a SB when all 4 of Eli's games were against tougher opponents than Denver.

Big Ben threw 76 less passes and had 4 games against two of the toughest defenses in the NFL in Baltimore and Cincinnati. Memories are short obviously, but Ben took his team to the Super Bowl last year and has two rings. Denver had a better defense than either Green Bay or New England and Ben took Pitt back from 10 down in the 4th Quarter on the road to force overtime (if his line had protected him at all on the last drive, the Steelers would have won). And he was badly banged up coming into that game and for most of the season.

Still, the Steelers weren't hanging on for dear life in late December and didn't get trounced twice by the Redskins (two games where Eli was outplayed by REX GROSSMAN and in the second critical December meeting the "3rd best QB in the NFL" according to you threw 3 picks and had a 45.5 QB rating).

Originally posted by no1marauder
Big Ben threw 76 less passes and had 4 games against two of the toughest defenses in the NFL in Baltimore and Cincinnati. Memories are short obviously, but Ben took his team to the Super Bowl last year and has two rings. Denver had a better defense than either Green Bay or New England and Ben took Pitt back from 10 down in the 4th Quarter on the road to ...[text shortened]... eting the "3rd best QB in the NFL" according to you threw 3 picks and had a 45.5 QB rating).

Eli had some bad games this year, yes. But on the whole he far outperformed Rothlisberger this year. He had to throw more passes because the Giants had a lousy running game most of the year. If anything, that's more to Eli's credit. Whether Ben was banged up is immaterial. If you want to say "I'll take Eli because Ben is banged up," fine. That counts. I already applied similar reasoning to taking Eli over Peyton.

Originally posted by sh76
Eli had some bad games this year, yes. But on the whole he far outperformed Rothlisberger this year. He had to throw more passes because the Giants had a lousy running game most of the year. If anything, that's more to Eli's credit. Whether Ben was banged up is immaterial. If you want to say "I'll take Eli because Ben is banged up," fine. That counts. I already applied similar reasoning to taking Eli over Peyton.

"Far outperformed"? That's absurd. Eli finally had a QB rating better than Big Ben this year; 92.9 v. 90.1. In the two year's prior, Ben had 97.0 and 100.5 compared to Eli's 85.3 and 93.1. And those were Eli's best year to date, while Roethlisberger has had three years with a 98.1 or better rating prior to those. For their careers, it's not even close; 92.1 v. 82.1.

I don't expect Big Ben to be as hurt next year, so that makes the comparison to Peyton dubious. Furthermore, Roethlisberger is two years younger than Eli so he may very well have a better career both before and after this year. I really don't see much of an argument for Eli being a better QB than Ben and I'm about as diehard a Giant fan as you'll get. I've seen pretty much every game Eli has played and I'd still take Ben over him.

Originally posted by no1marauder
"Far outperformed"? That's absurd. Eli finally had a QB rating better than Big Ben this year; 92.9 v. 90.1. In the two year's prior, Ben had 97.0 and 100.5 compared to Eli's 85.3 and 93.1. And those were Eli's best year to date, while Roethlisberger has had three years with a 98.1 or better rating prior to those. For their careers, it's not even close; 9 t. I've seen pretty much every game Eli has played and I'd still take Ben over him.

QB rating is an overrated stat that puts far too much emphasis on interceptions.

Chad Pennington, Joe Flacco, Carson Palmer, Daunte Culpepper and Tony Romo are all in the top 20 all time in QB rating. That's all you need to know about that stat.

Productivity, as measured in yards and points, is far more important (though, granted, they should find a way to give the QB credit for drives that end in rushing TDs as well).

That Eli had a poor running game this year and threw for almost 5,000 yards and then won 4 straight playoff games, 2 of them against all time great QBs has to outshine Ben's slightly higher QB rating.

I'm not saying Eli has had a better career, but if I had to win a game next week, I'm taking Eli over Ben.

Edit: The Giants, with the aforementioned lack of running game, outscored Pitt 394 to 325. Eli had a better year than Ben and it's not really that close.

Originally posted by sh76
QB rating is an overrated stat that puts far too much emphasis on interceptions.

Chad Pennington, Joe Flacco, Carson Palmer, Daunte Culpepper and Tony Romo are all in the top 20 all time in QB rating. That's all you need to know about that stat.

Productivity, as measured in yards and points, is far more important (though, granted, they should find a way t ...[text shortened]... , outscored Pitt 394 to 325. Eli had a better year than Ben and it's not really that close.

sh76: Productivity, as measured in yards and points, is far more important.

If you were consistent with such an assertion (which you won't be), you'd have to concede that Matthew Stafford was a far better QB than Eli this year. He threw for more yards and 12 more TDs than Eli and his team scored 80 more points than the Giants. Moreover his team had no running attack either; they were 29th in the league.

I do not share your disdain for QB rating. While there may be some anomalies, the best QBs of the modern era are represented in the top ranks of all-time ratings. Here's the top 10:

. Aaron Rodgers (28) 104.1 2005-2011 gnb
2. Tony Romo (31) 96.9 2004-2011 dal
3. Steve Young+ 96.8 1985-1999 2TM
4. Tom Brady (34) 96.4 2000-2011 nwe
5. Philip Rivers (30) 95.5 2004-2011 sdg
6. Peyton Manning (35) 94.9 1998-2011 clt
7. Drew Brees (32) 94.0 2001-2011 2TM
8. Kurt Warner 93.7 1998-2009 3TM
9. Joe Montana+ 92.3 1979-1994 2TM
10. Matt Schaub (30)

Big Ben is 11th. When you have a stat which so obviously includes the best QBs of this generation it's clear it measures something significant. Eli is still in Bernie Kosar territory.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_rating_career.htm


The Steelers played to score enough to win; they are a conservative team. They managed to win 3 more games in a much tougher division and avoided embarrassments like the Giants suffered. Eli's played well in streaks, but I'd still take Big Ben in a big game.

Originally posted by no1marauder
sh76: Productivity, as measured in yards and points, is far more important.

If you were consistent with such an assertion (which you won't be), you'd have to concede that Matthew Stafford was a far better QB than Eli this year. He threw for more yards and 12 more TDs than Eli and his team scored 80 more points than the Giants. Moreover his t e Giants suffered. Eli's played well in streaks, but I'd still take Big Ben in a big game.

Stafford had a better regular season than Eli. The post season counts too.

You listed the top 10 in QB rating. Fine. Now look at 11-20; much more anomalous. Even in the top 10, that Romo is #2 and that Peyton is below Romo and Rivers is itself an indictment of the stat.

The problem with percentage statistics in football is that there is not a limited and roughly fixed opportunity, as there is baseball. In football, by doing well, you earn more opportunity to do well. The guy who completes three 3-yard passes and leaves a 4th and 1 is less productive than the guy who throws 2 into the ground and then a 10 yd completion on 3rd and 10 (and yet the first QB has a rating that's almost double the second guy!). The QB's job in football is not necessarily to be efficient. It's to put yards and, especially, points on the board to the extent possible. Granted, some teams ask their QB to be efficient only, usually when their passing game isn't any good or when they have a great running game and defense.

When you attempt more throws, it's usually because you've earned the ability to attempt more throws by completing earlier throws.

QB A is 15-23, 210 yards, 2 TD no picks - 123.4 rating

QB B is 22-32, 325 yards, 4 TDs and 2 picks - 115.2 rating

Are you going to tell me that QB A had a better day than QB B?

Originally posted by sh76
Stafford had a better regular season than Eli. The post season counts too.

You listed the top 10 in QB rating. Fine. Now look at 11-20; much more anomalous. Even in the top 10, that Romo is #2 and that Peyton is below Romo and Rivers is itself an indictment of the stat.

The problem with percentage statistics in football is that there is not a limited and ...[text shortened]... d 2 picks - 115.2 rating

Are you going to tell me that QB A had a better day than QB B?

Depends on when the picks where.

Here's Stafford's post-season figures: 28-43, 380 yds, 3 TDs, 2 INT and 1 rushing TD. Not too shabby. He had the misfortune of facing what every Giant fan was dreading; another game in the dome against the Saints.

Stats don't entirely resolve these debates. If Romo wasn't a dreadful choke artist, he'd probably be considered close to a top 5 QB. Eli had the good fortune this year to be blessed with two outstanding breakaway receivers who came up with utterly huge plays at precipitous times (the season was looking desperate before Victor Cruz turned a short pass into a 99 yard TD against the Jets). The fact that the Giant running game wasn't very good most of the year helped Eli's stats esp. in yardage (he had more than 900 more yards passing this year than he ever had before). In 2007 he had a bad year turning the ball over 29 times and completing only 56.1% of his passes, but once you hoist that trophy all is forgiven and forgotten. Eli's a better QB than he was back then, but IMO as someone who has seen almost every minute of his NFL career, I just cannot regard him as the same type of QB as Rodgers, Brees, Brady, his brother or more arguably Big Ben. If he has another year like this, maybe I'll alter that opinion.

Originally posted by no1marauder
If Romo wasn't a dreadful choke artist, he'd probably be considered close to a top 5 QB.

Exactly! But something like being "dreadful choke artist" (or not being such) is a big part of being a good QB. Romo may be a better pure passer than Eli and in a random fantasy week, I don't know who I'd bet on. But we know from experience that when all the chips are down, Eli is probably going to lead you 80 yards to pay dirt and Romo is probably going to lead you 68 yards and then float a screen pass into a linebacker's hands. That, and that alone, is why Eli is better than Romo.

Originally posted by sh76
Exactly! But something like being "dreadful choke artist" (or not being such) is a big part of being a good QB. Romo may be a better pure passer than Eli and in a random fantasy week, I don't know who I'd bet on. But we know from experience that when all the chips are down, Eli is probably going to lead you 80 yards to pay dirt and Romo is probably going to lea ...[text shortened]... creen pass into a linebacker's hands. That, and that alone, is why Eli is better than Romo.

Eli is head and shoulder above Roethlisberger, plain and simple. Numbers don't lie. Same # of SB victories, Eli has more road wins, won the SB with less of a ground attack than Big Ben and no name receivers. It all boils down to W's in big games. I'd take Eli any day over Big Ben. Big Ben lost to Tebow. Eli has never lost to a lesser QB like that in crunch time!

Originally posted by scacchipazzo
Eli is head and shoulder above Roethlisberger, plain and simple. Numbers don't lie. Same # of SB victories, Eli has more road wins, won the SB with less of a ground attack than Big Ben and no name receivers. It all boils down to W's in big games. I'd take Eli any day over Big Ben. Big Ben lost to Tebow. Eli has never lost to a lesser QB like that in crunch time!

I don't know whether to laugh or cry when I read such BS.

Here's Eli losing to Jake Delhomme in the playoffs and getting shut out in the process: http://espn.go.com/nfl/recap?gameId=260108019

Here's Eli losing to Jeff Garcia in the twilight of his career in the playoffs:
http://espn.go.com/nfl/recap?gameId=270107021

Here's how Big Blue's defense of their Super Bowl ended against Donovan McNabb: http://espn.go.com/nfl/recap?gameId=290111019

The Giants scored 31 points COMBINED in those three losses. Eli's stats: 41/74 for 443 yards 2TDs, 6 INT.

Please don't ever write a sentence like your last one to a Giant fan.