1. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
    Uk
    Joined
    21 Jan '06
    Moves
    443
    26 Apr '08 15:13
    United play flowing attacking, passing football with confidence and guts for most of the season to put them in a great position and then what does Fergie start doing? He seems to be getting the team to retreat into their shell and show far too much respect to teams that just aren't as good as us. Does he enjoy a tight finish to things?

    Why didn't he just treat the Chelsea game as free go at winning the title and get them playing without fear? There's one thing worse than losing a title or a Champions League title. I'll tell you what it is...that's looking back thinking "if only we had just expressed ourselves and played our normal game we would have done it" That's regret that your can't get over. If United blow it all then Fergie is to blame for putting the shackles on a team that was unstoppable 3 weeks ago.

    It's ridiculous. United cannot win the title like this by not being true to who they are as a team. If he lets them play and Chelsea trun out to be better than us then so be it - but Fergie wants his tactical victory doesn't he ?, to somehow show he's a Macel Lippi or something. But that's never been the United way. Leave that s***te to Chelski Fergie , they are better at it! True Champions do not retreat into their shell when the heat is on. United have gone from strutting around the park scoring almost at will to playing the worst football in the top 6.

    I remember Fergie years ago shouting at Dennis Irwin "keep playing football , dennis!!! " . I also remember Fergie arguing with a pundit after United's 99 semi final win v arsenal saying " you know it could all blow up in my face , but people will remember nights like these " He was being criticised for playing a strong team with the Juve game coming up. What's happened? Is he getting long in the tooth? Football at this stage is all about momentum and keeping the football going that has carried you that far. Before long this team won't remember what it's like to actually have a go. Top teams do not wait to go 1-0 down before they start playing. Is fergie stopping this team from becoming great by making them cautious and fearful? I hope he takes the gloves off soon.
  2. 6yd box
    Joined
    24 Jun '07
    Moves
    5179
    26 Apr '08 15:30
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    United play flowing attacking, passing football with confidence and guts for most of the season to put them in a great position and then what does Fergie start doing? He seems to be getting the team to retreat into their shell and show far too much respect to teams that just aren't as good as us. Does he enjoy a tight finish to things?

    Why didn't he ...[text shortened]... t by making them cautious and fearful? I hope he takes the gloves off soon.
    Excellant points mate.. at first i tought you were just one of those 'Glory hunter' united fans.

    I now know diffrent!

    Not sure why Fergie has got cold feet all of a sudden!
  3. Santiago
    Joined
    06 Aug '04
    Moves
    233535
    26 Apr '08 15:48
    A manc fan I know said the same to me. He fears for the return leg vs Barcelona. He feels that Man Utd will not play their natural game and with Barcelona just needing a goal in a draw, they could be eliminated by a sucker punch.
  4. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
    Uk
    Joined
    21 Jan '06
    Moves
    443
    26 Apr '08 16:22
    Originally posted by spurs73
    Excellant points mate.. at first i tought you were just one of those 'Glory hunter' united fans.

    I now know diffrent!

    Not sure why Fergie has got cold feet all of a sudden!
    No glory hunter me. I've stood on an open terrace at Notts county in the rain watching a 0-1 defeat following the reds. It was 15 years before I saw a sniff of a title.

    Fergie seems to have this thing about united not being successful because we are "gun-hoe" . The problem is there's a balance between showing respect and TOO much respect.
  5. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
    Uk
    Joined
    21 Jan '06
    Moves
    443
    26 Apr '08 16:25
    Originally posted by Hopster
    A manc fan I know said the same to me. He fears for the return leg vs Barcelona. He feels that Man Utd will not play their natural game and with Barcelona just needing a goal in a draw, they could be eliminated by a sucker punch.
    ..and that's the whole point. We would look suckers. At least if you have a go and lose you can come off the field with no regrets. Afterall , its a cup competition. It gauls me that Liverpool won it with a real have a go approach.
  6. LA
    Joined
    30 Mar '07
    Moves
    19743
    26 Apr '08 20:39
    So United lose a game to a dubious penalty in the 85th minute.
    United are two fairly easy victories from the Title and Fergie is losing it?

    United never play well against Blackburn, Middlesborough or Chelsea.

    He was right to rest Ronaldo today.
    Ronaldo was completely out of the game against Barcelona, never plays well against Chelsea, he needs a kick up the backside.

    Chelsea were always going to come out like a steam train against U ited today.
    Uniteds attacking game has been based on a solid foundation of Ferdinand and Vidic, they have hardly played together for the last 6 weeks.

    Chelsea haven't lost at home for 4 years.

    United have a game 72 hours later against Barcelona that they have to win.

    United have to change the team and formation against unexpectedly losing Vidic and Rooney.

    Playing defensively and changing a few players was the right thing to do.

    We were 5 miutes from the title.
    Should still win the title.
    And play Barcelona at home only needing a win to get to the CL final.

    Give Fergie a break.
  7. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
    Uk
    Joined
    21 Jan '06
    Moves
    443
    26 Apr '08 21:482 edits
    Originally posted by Rooney Once a Blue
    So United lose a game to a dubious penalty in the 85th minute.
    United are two fairly easy victories from the Title and Fergie is losing it?

    United never play well against Blackburn, Middlesborough or Chelsea.

    He was right to rest Ronaldo today.
    Ronaldo was completely out of the game against Barcelona, never plays well against Chelsea, he n
    And play Barcelona at home only needing a win to get to the CL final.

    Give Fergie a break.
    I don't see how handing the intiative to the other team and playing in fear is the right thing to do. Imagine how buzzed the players and crowd would be against barca if united had claimed the title today. It would be like having a goal start.

    I'm telling you this team is looking far too nervy to me and we are NOT playing well at all. Playing defensive and conceding possession does not suit United and is a complete waste of their attacking talent. Football is all about confidence and at some point United will have to puff out their chests and show they have the right to be European Champions and Premier Champions, so why wait until you are in a corner before you do it? They created 2 great chances in the last 3 minutes at chelsea because they had a go. So why wait?

    This team is not doing it . Against Man City the occasion got to them and they didn't play. What you don't understand is that Fergies tactics for me were spot on against barca and chelsea BUT they were spot on for a bore draw team like AC Milan not United. Look at our players , they are passers , dribblers , creators with pace and flair who love to play. We are not a team of stoppers and if we don't play to our strengths we will get found out by teams that do that sort of thing better than we do. What's happening is they are losing there fluency slowly and that's knocking confidence.

    We've only won one game in 5 and that was lucky against Arsenal. i would love to give fergie a break but I wish he would give the team a break and get them playing again. He should get Van de saar to kick it into his net in the first minute so they are forced to have a go , they only seem to play when they need to which is soooo dangerous and complacent.

    If United had needed a win to day to stay in the race they would have got at least a draw. 70% of the time when two teams meet and one needs a draw and the other needs a win , the team that needs the win gets it because they have the right attitude to the game. Since when have United won loads of titles by playing for draws. Fergies whole success has been based on bravery , attack and guts. "You have to try and win games to win the league"--- SAF

    BTW- There was nothing dubious about the penalty , we got what we deserved for inviting pressure and playing for that draw again. It's pants and I reckon fans of other clubs can spot what's happening.
  8. LA
    Joined
    30 Mar '07
    Moves
    19743
    26 Apr '08 22:20
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    I don't see how handing the intiative to the other team and playing in fear is the right thing to do. Imagine how buzzed the players and crowd would be against barca if united had claimed the title today. It would be like having a goal start.

    I'm telling you this team is looking far too nervy to me and we are NOT playing well at all. Playing defens ...[text shortened]... t draw again. It's pants and I reckon fans of other clubs can spot what's happening.
    If we had played open attacking football against Barcelona what would have happened?

    Vidic missing means we are shaky at the back.
    Everyone claims Ferdinand is rubbish, so we're really in trouble now.
    Ronaldo is likely (and did) freeze as he does against the big teams.
    Barcelona is an intimidating ground and United have never won there.
    We could easily have ended up losing 3-1 like we did against Madrid 4 years ago.
    The game was Barcelona's cup final as they can't win the league, it could have been a disaster if we went all out against them.

    We played tight, used the squad because we had 2 more massive games in 6 days to come and are still in with a great chance of winning 2 competitions this season.

    If we can't beat Barcelona at home then good luck to Barcelona or Chelsea.


    As for the Chelsea game.
    Again Chelsea had to go all out for the win, so we were bound to be under great pressure at the start.
    We lose Vidic again.
    Chelsea haven't lost at home for 4 years.
    Ronaldo and Tevez are now fresh for the Barcelona and West Ham games.
    We were 5 minutes from getting the result we needed.
    United are still clear favourates for the title.

    If United had gone all out against Chelsea the chances are we would have got beaten by 2 goals and our best players would be tired for the Barcelona game.

    We have to pace ourselves.
    United will go all out against Barcelona and should win in style.
    If we can't beat West Ham at home and Wigan away we don't deserve the title.

    Liverpool rested a bunch of players today.
    I would be afraid if I was a Chelsea supported that the team will be drained for the games against Liverpool on Wednesday and Newcastle away at the weekend.
  9. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
    Uk
    Joined
    21 Jan '06
    Moves
    443
    26 Apr '08 23:18
    Originally posted by Rooney Once a Blue
    If we had played open attacking football against Barcelona what would have happened?

    Vidic missing means we are shaky at the back.
    Everyone claims Ferdinand is rubbish, so we're really in trouble now.
    Ronaldo is likely (and did) freeze as he does against the big teams.
    Barcelona is an intimidating ground and United have never won there.
    We ...[text shortened]... e drained for the games against Liverpool on Wednesday and Newcastle away at the weekend.
    We have to pace ourselves yes , but get out the zimmer frames no! You know as well as I do that once you lose your tempo and fluency it's hard to switch back on again like a tap.

    You worry about getting beat 2-0 against chelsea ? Madness !! We could afford a 5-0 defeat with our goal difference! It was a free ticket to the title that we never bought.

    You talk about tiredness , but winning games and wrapping up titles is the biggest tonic you can have , it would have given the team an extra yard against Barca. How can this team suddenly play like 4 weeks ago out of nothing , with no momentum.

    I'm not suggesting that we should have gone gunhoe against Chelsea or barca ,(or anyone else) but why not a performance like Roma away with a healthy balance between defence and attack? Why not play our normal game against chelsea? You may sound all clever now but one more league slip up and and away goal for barca and the whole thing comes tumbling down and we wil look longingly back to these games at the bridge and nou camp for another chance that will never come.

    I have two main points against these tactics 1) is that it instills fear and nervousness in the team and fans which breeds mistakes and lack of confidence. 2) It's too comfortable for the other teams. One thing you want to do in football is take the other team out of their comfort zones. Barca (unless you didn't notice) seemed quite happy with their 0-0 and Chelsea always looked like scoring first and didn't exactly seem dismayed with how United had set up.

    The problem with United doing some impersonation of AC Milan is that we are not as good at it as them and don't look comfortable doing it. The passing just goes to pieces and we get through these matches by the skin of our teeth. Think back to Arsenal at home . What do arsenal love? Lots of space and time to pick out their passes and play their triangles. What did United give them ? Lots of space and time. How lucky were we?

    The problem with defensive shadowing and conceding space and possession is you basically hand the psychological advantage to the other team by saying "we are scared of you". You also end up defending deep and allowing balls to be knocked into your area , two crosses , two goals for Chelsea.

    You keep looking at the negatives. If we had gone at barca more we might have won 2-1 and have the tie wrapped up freeing up the team to have a real go against chelsea. Then win the league early and rest everyone for moscow. In 99 the team nearly lost the final because they were knackered out by the title race and fa cup.

    You talk about losing to real 3-1 but don't you remember the 0-0 against real? Job done ? I think not! 0-0 is a very powerful 1st leg result at home in europe.

    Overall , it seems we have become a team afraid of losing , and fear is always bad because you end up focussing your mind on what you want to avoid rather than focussing on success. Caution and healthy respect is one thing but fear and over caution hinders performance. It's the same in any sport , why do you think Europe always beats USA in golf ? - fear of losing. Even you would admit that United's fluency has seeped away recently would you not? The dip in form is clearly psychological to me. United always traditionally do best when they revert back to a style that suits them , I see no reason to change it and try to win things the chelski way.
  10. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
    Uk
    Joined
    21 Jan '06
    Moves
    443
    26 Apr '08 23:29
    Originally posted by Rooney Once a Blue
    If we had played open attacking football against Barcelona what would have happened?

    Vidic missing means we are shaky at the back.
    Everyone claims Ferdinand is rubbish, so we're really in trouble now.
    Ronaldo is likely (and did) freeze as he does against the big teams.
    Barcelona is an intimidating ground and United have never won there.
    We ...[text shortened]... e drained for the games against Liverpool on Wednesday and Newcastle away at the weekend.
    United will go all out against Barcelona and should win in style. -----rooney----

    ...what? They will suddenly click into gear automatically?? You know it doesn't work like that. In case you haven't noticed they are playing pretty poorly right now , passes going astray , low tempo etc - these are very bad habits to start developing right now. They have forgotten what "all out " is!! My guess is that they will be told by fergie to watch out for that away goal and try and sneak it 1-0. My other guess is that Rikaard will be expecting this and loving it.

    This tie is more at risk at OT than it was away. Barca will score first forcing Fergie to have to throw his game plan in the bin (as he usually has to in europe) and we'll surge back to 3-1 and wonder why the hell we didn't just go after their second rate defence in the first place. Get plenty of gum in for the match !!!

    I will say one thing though. I absolutely hope you are right and I am completely wrong! 🙄🙄🙄🙄😲🙄😲
  11. LA
    Joined
    30 Mar '07
    Moves
    19743
    27 Apr '08 03:31
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    United will go all out against Barcelona and should win in style. -----rooney----

    ...what? They will suddenly click into gear automatically?? You know it doesn't work like that. In case you haven't noticed they are playing pretty poorly right now , passes going astray , low tempo etc - these are very bad habits to start developing right now. They ha ...[text shortened]... thing though. I absolutely hope you are right and I am completely wrong! 🙄🙄🙄🙄😲🙄😲
    I completely agree with you that United have lost momentum, fluency and confidence.

    I agree with some of your points and disagree with others.

    United have had the following problems recently:-
    - Our defense has suffered from injuries and a different back 4 every game
    - We have had some very difficult games Roma(2), Liverpool, Arsenal, Boro away, Blackburn away, Chelsea away
    - Ronaldo has lost confidence and form
    - Trying to guess the midfield is like throwing a dice at the moment for various reasons

    Surely you don't think you are a better judge of how United should play than Fergie?

    We have had to play Barcelona, Arsenal and Chelsea and in each of these games the opposition HAD to perform.
    These teams have rasied their games against United.

    I think we'll go all out against Barcelona now that we know we just need a win.

    The team can't play at the highest tempo every game, 2 games a week against the best teams in the world, it just doesn't happen.
    Look how Arsenal faded away.

    We have a clear target now.
    We have to beat Barcelona at home.
    Lets get behind the team, we have a great chance of making the final.
    Ronaldo and Tevez are fresh, Ronaldo has to perform, he knows this and hopefully Rooney and Vidic are fit.
    I can see us winning 2-0 or 2-1.

    As for the league.
    Chelsea played fantastic football in the 1st half.
    They had to put everything into the game.
    You're wrong if you think we can put out an attacking line up every game and we'll dominate games.
    Its the end of the season and anything can happen.
    Tuesday is our day to go for it.

    Even though we have been playing inconsistently we should have got an away goal in Barcelona and was 5 minutes frmo a draw at Chelsea.

    We also played well in the 2nd half against Chelsea but thats partly because Chelsea sat back a bit.

    The difference bewteen United and Chelsea isn't so much that we can just put our best side out, play attacking football and expect to win.
    They are unbeaten at home for 4 years for a reason.

    Fergie took a strategic gamble, gave Ronaldo a deserved kick up the backside, rested Tevez.

    We will really go for it now on Tuesday.

    In the league like I said.
    If we can't beat West Ham at home and Wigan away.
    Congratulations Chelsea.
    BTW, there's no guarantee Chelsea will beat Newcastle away.

    Come on United.
  12. Bramall Lane
    Joined
    02 Aug '06
    Moves
    38214
    27 Apr '08 07:08
    Originally posted by Rooney Once a Blue

    If we can't beat West Ham at home we don't deserve the title.
    You didn't manage that last season!
    (and I know, 'cos it was at our cost!)
  13. Bramall Lane
    Joined
    02 Aug '06
    Moves
    38214
    27 Apr '08 07:10
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    [b]

    This tie is more at risk at OT than it was away.
    Spot on.

    The pressure is on now.
  14. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
    Uk
    Joined
    21 Jan '06
    Moves
    443
    27 Apr '08 15:581 edit
    Originally posted by Rooney Once a Blue
    I completely agree with you that United have lost momentum, fluency and confidence.

    I agree with some of your points and disagree with others.

    United have had the following problems recently:-
    - Our defense has suffered from injuries and a different back 4 every game
    - We have had some very difficult games Roma(2), Liverpool, Arsenal, Bo helsea.
    BTW, there's no guarantee Chelsea will beat Newcastle away.

    Come on United.
    Surely you don't think you are a better judge of how United should play than Fergie? ----rooney

    RESPONSE ----- Most of the time obviously not , but on occasions I think he gets too cautious and restricts his players and disrupts the fluency. I think he has some issue about trying to pull off some tactical wonder stroke and sneak through 1-0 like AC Milan do but in the end something always happens that forces United to have a complete change of plan and have a go anyway. Don't get me wrong I thought his tactics against Roma were perfect because we didn't show Roma too much respect. The problem is that he did something different against Barca presumably because "it's Barca" and it's the semi final and that's what we are "supposed " to do.

    We have had to play Barcelona, Arsenal and Chelsea and in each of these games the opposition HAD to perform.
    These teams have rasied their games against United.---rooney---

    RESPONSE---- And why don't we raise our game as well? It's not as if we can't do it because when we go 1-0 down we get mean and start playing. But why wait until that happens? In the end , by not rasing our game against Boro etc means that we have to raise it against someone else. Every point is precious . There's no escaping the fact that no team can cruise to the title.


    I think we'll go all out against Barcelona now that we know we just need a win.----ROONEY

    RESPONSE----And don't you think Rikaard knows this and is hoping that's what will happen?

    The team can't play at the highest tempo every game, 2 games a week against the best teams in the world, it just doesn't happen.
    Look how Arsenal faded away. ---rooney--


    I think playing at a higher tempo suits us and not the teams we play. In any case , how much energy does it take to follow the ball around whilst another team has it. Ever heard of letting the ball do the work? Teams that win and keep winning find an extra yard from somewhere anyway. Arsenal faded for many reasons , mainly psychological. Interestingly Arsenal lost momentum because they started cruising in the FA Cup (4-0) and Alan Hansen predicted that it could unravel their season and it did. Ok , United might get a bit tired but you overlook the benefits of keeping a winning run going and maintaining momentum and fluency. A little tiredness is a small price to pay for more points and maintaining form - why can't you see this? Another point is that we end up having to play at a high tempo anyway to rescue these games that we nearly mess up because we have slacked off . Coming back from 1-0 down late on against Blackburn took a lot out of them. By pretending we can cruies through games fergie just delays the inevitable high tempo desperate finish anyway. Don't forget that things could soooo easily have been different against Arsenal and Blackburn and we could have been relying on the geordies to do us a favour.

    I think you might be in denial about how close United's season is to falling apart after 3 weeks ago we looked unstoppable against Villa. What's happened? Look at the player's faces , they look like rabbits in the headlights - whose fault is that?

    BTW- I still hope that I am utterly wrong and would be overjoyed to have egg all over my face!!!! Come on United!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  15. LA
    Joined
    30 Mar '07
    Moves
    19743
    27 Apr '08 17:40
    Originally posted by blade68
    You didn't manage that last season!
    (and I know, 'cos it was at our cost!)
    We didn't need to beat West Ham at home last season, the league was won. West ham had to win the game to stay up.
    You're statement is proving the point i'm trying to make.

    If you want to cheer yourself up go put some money on Chelsea winning the league.
    Odds:-
    Manchester United 1/3
    Chelsea 11/4
Back to Top