Future Hall of Famers

Maranville didn't get in via the veterans committee and he didnt come close to hitting .281. Brooks Robinson didn't either.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
First of all, I know exactly what I am talking about, and you alluding to anyone as having a big mouth is like the pot calling the kettle black. And you never, repeat never, said the pitchers wins were aspirational goals. You indicated the managemnet set goals for the players. Truth be known, those goals are laid out in their contracts by way of bonuse moves this may trigger by the teams they are competing with. It could be a very busy weekend.

If you consider a team to be "in trouble" when they sweep two contending teams in consecutive series, then the Yankees were in terrible "trouble". Contending teams should try to get stronger, however; the Yanks have lost two big bats in Posada and Matsui and Chien Ming-Wang, who won 19 games in both of the last two years is out until at least September. The fact that they are looking to get better hardly means that the team was a non-contender previously - 3 whole games out in July doesn't mean you're out of the race, Mr. Expert.

I don't know what you are blathering about in your first two paragraphs. The point I made is simple (so even you should be able to understand it): players and management care a lot more about the number of wins a starting pitcher gets than they care about what his ERA is. One person in this thread evaluates this differently and thinks ERA is virtually the only thing that matters. I say he's nuts. Do you agree or not?

The value of ERA as compared to wins ain't much, so I still don't agree with you. Something like percentage of quality starts would be a better measure of how a starting pitcher normally pitches than ERA (which one bad outing in 10 can have a very negative effect on). At any rate, if you were taking no position on the Petitte-Zambrano issue than "Quoting and Replying" to my post discussing it was pretty dumb.

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
Maranville didn't get in via the veterans committee and he didnt come close to hitting .281. Brooks Robinson didn't either.

Maranville failed to get in 13 times and was finally elected shortly after his death. Brooks Robinson was a power hitter (268 HRS) and considered the best fielding 3B of all-time.

EDIT: My bad; Brooks doesn't seem to have had any more power than Biggio.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Maranville failed to get in 13 times and was finally elected shortly after his death. Brooks Robinson was a power hitter (268 HRS) and considered the best fielding 3B of all-time.

EDIT: My bad; Brooks doesn't seem to have had any more power than Biggio.

He's not considered the best by me--that would be Pie Traynor. 🙂

Nevertheless, he DID get in.

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
He's not considered the best by me--that would be Pie Traynor. 🙂

Nevertheless, he DID get in.

Is Craig Biggio considered the best fielding catcher/second basemen/center fielder by anyone?

It must have been great of you to watch Pie Traynor's games to judge that he was a better fielder than Brooks Robinson.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Is Craig Biggio considered the best fielding catcher/second basemen/center fielder by anyone?

It must have been great of you to watch Pie Traynor's games to judge that he was a better fielder than Brooks Robinson.

I didn't get to see Pie any more than I watched Speaker or Dimaggio in their prime, but I am a student of the game and, like you I'm sure, have developed opinions based on research.

Biggio? Maybe--I'd have to ask every baseball fan on the planet to answer that question. My guess would be, yes.

To my knowledge, Biggio is the only player in history that was sucessfully transitioned from catcher to 2B. There have been a few transitioned from catcher to the OF or 1B which are relatively easy transitions, and then Johnny Bench was transitioned successfully to 3B (although he was not gold glove caliber at 3B as Biggio was a 2B).

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
He's not considered the best by me--that would be Pie Traynor. 🙂

Nevertheless, he DID get in.

Of course I never saw Traynor play 3B either, but suffice it to say, the game that Brooks Robinson played was much more difficult than Traynor's day due to the invention of Astroturf. While Robinson did not play his entire career dealing with the turf, the combination of the turf and the better equipment made the speed of the hit balls much faster coming to the hot corner and Brooks had cat light reflexes that allowed him to make plays that many others could not. Mike Schmidt was also very flashy with the leather at 3B and he did deal with astroturf his entire career, and he deserves some consideration as well. There were also a few 3B who did not make the HOF but played some unbelievable 3B such as Doug Rader. But, if I had to choose one, I would probably stick with Brooks as the best, with Schmidt a close second.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
To my knowledge, Biggio is the only player in history that was sucessfully transitioned from catcher to 2B. There have been a few transitioned from catcher to the OF or 1B which are relatively easy transitions, and then Johnny Bench was transitioned successfully to 3B (although he was not gold glove caliber at 3B as Biggio was a 2B).

Yeah, 4 Gold Gloves at 2B definitely helps his chances. I think he'll get in with the 3000 hits anyway; maybe not on his first ballot.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
Of course I never saw Traynor play 3B either, but suffice it to say, the game that Brooks Robinson played was much more difficult than Traynor's day due to the invention of Astroturf. While Robinson did not play his entire career dealing with the turf, the combination of the turf and the better equipment made the speed of the hit balls much faster comin ...[text shortened]... had to choose one, I would probably stick with Brooks as the best, with Schmidt a close second.

Those points are sound,as are the ones that hold that players from Traynor's day faced tougher pitchers and a "less lively" ball.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
Of course I never saw Traynor play 3B either, but suffice it to say, the game that Brooks Robinson played was much more difficult than Traynor's day due to the invention of Astroturf. While Robinson did not play his entire career dealing with the turf, the combination of the turf and the better equipment made the speed of the hit balls much faster comin ...[text shortened]... had to choose one, I would probably stick with Brooks as the best, with Schmidt a close second.

I'd pick Scmitty over Robinson on a fantasy team every time. I guess that has me ranking all-time rhird-baseman thus:
1. Traynor
2. Schmidt
3. Robinson
4. Jimmy Collins or George Kell

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
I'd pick Scmitty over Robinson on a fantasy team every time. I guess that has me ranking all-time rhird-baseman thus:
1. Traynor
2. Schmidt
3. Robinson
4. Jimmy Collins or George Kell

Uh, that is apples and oranges. In fantasy, fielding doesn't usually count (although in some circumstances there is a factor for errors, but those are hybrid leagues and extremely rare). If fielding is out of the equation, then Mike Schmidt is hands down the best third basemen in history. You could also move Eddie Matthews up as well. Traynor would not come close in those categories because Schmidt and Matthews had way too much power advantage over Traynor's average and steals. It might be argued that Brooks would be a push against Traynor from a purely offensive standpoint in the fantasy game. You would have to say that George Brett and Wade Boggs' status would be elevated above Brooks/Traynor as well.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
Uh, that is apples and oranges. In fantasy, fielding doesn't usually count (although in some circumstances there is a factor for errors, but those are hybrid leagues and extremely rare). If fielding is out of the equation, then Mike Schmidt is hands down the best third basemen in history. You could also move Eddie Matthews up as well. Traynor would not ...[text shortened]... say that George Brett and Wade Boggs' status would be elevated above Brooks/Traynor as well.

Yep I shouldnt have used the word fantasy. The game I play does include fielding stats, and HRs don't count nearly as much as in most fantasy leagues. I play tabletop simulations, so every stat comes into play equally.
You are quite correct--in most fantasy leagues I've seen, Mathews or Schmidt would be the guy---even Mel Ott, since he qualified at 3rd a few years 🙂

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:IjTVGZD7V_QxIM:http://www.archives.gov.on.ca/english/exhibits/agriculture/pics/3403_farmer_strw_hat_1020.jpg

Originally posted by smartrrrrs
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:IjTVGZD7V_QxIM:http://www.archives.gov.on.ca/english/exhibits/agriculture/pics/3403_farmer_strw_hat_1020.jpg

sorry I thought it was farmers