Barry Bonds - 762 - tainted
Ken Griffey - 613+ Sammy Sosa - 609 - tainted
Mark McGwire - 583 - tainted
Rafael Palmeiro - 569 - tainted
Alex Rodriguez - 553+ - tainted
Jim Thome - 545+ Manny Ramirez - 533+ - tainted
Frank Thomas - 521 Gary Sheffield - 500+ - tainted
Fred McGriff - 493 Carlos Delgado - 472+ Jose Canseco - 462 - tainted
all hail to the 5 people on this list whose achievements have not been tarnished (yet) -- and Chipper Jones (411), Vladimir Guerrero (393), and Albert Pujols (330) are the other clean (so far) players likely to reach 450.
If you consider that he missed four half-seasons due to injuries -- Griffey would right now be getting pretty close Hank Aaron's record for career clean HRs and Barry Bonds' asterisk festival -- injuries that he might have avoided had he been using steroids like everyone else...😀
We need to appreciate him as being one of the all-time greats to ever play the game - at least until the next test tube drops
I always thought that McGriff had no chance of getting into the Hall of Fame -- he ended up with 493 HRs, but the general feeling has been that had he hit 500, he would've been the first to do this and not make it to the HOF - and I also though Delgado was in the same boat (his numbers are similar to McGriff's). But once you eliminate all the juicers, that 493 HR total looks a lot more impressive.
It doesn't matter griffey is gonna have to retire soon. Once his contract is over with the mariners nobody is going to want him unless he starts producing better. I mean come one one HR and a sub 200 batting average so far? I don't think its going to get much better that as the season progresses especially since Safeco isn't a hitters field.
Does he take a pay hit? I hope so if he's unable to play because he cheated.
P-
Just heard he loses over 7M
given the amount of money the guy's made during his career, I doubt he'll miss $7M
but now he's been added to the list of players with tarnished legacies - players who will never see the hall of fame (at least not for a long time) - players who no one will want to honor despite their impressive achievements.
then again - if Manny cared about this sort of thing, he wouldn't have been using illegal stuff at a time when everyone's testing for it
I guess it's not really a surprise - but a part of me felt that since Manny is such a strange person who's always done things his own way - that perhaps he was one of the few superstars that WASN'T cheating
Originally posted by Melanerpes given the amount of money the guy's made during his career, I doubt he'll miss $7M
but now he's been added to the list of players with tarnished legacies - players who will never see the hall of fame (at least not for a long time) - players who no one will want to honor despite their impressive achievements.
then again - if Manny cared about this so ...[text shortened]... things his own way - that perhaps he was one of the few superstars that WASN'T cheating
Hopefully, the Red Sox fans can now come down off their high horse about A-Rod.
Originally posted by searcy1977 Manny Ramirez is being suspended for performance enhancing drugs. Does anyone not use in the mlb?
Who does not use? The Boston Red Sox. If Papi did, he wouldnt be hurting now, and would have had obvious #s - like over 40-60 HRs per season.
Pretty obvious when someone is on steriods - their face gets all round and puffy. Look at before and after pictures of Bonds, Clemens and all the others.
The reason Manny was traded away was that all the Red Sox players were tired of his bad attitude and banded together and went to management. They didnt miss him even before this. They choose young, motivated players instead. Bay, Pedroia, Ellsbury, etc etc.
Originally posted by impatient Who does not use? The Boston Red Sox. If Papi did, he wouldnt be hurting now, and would have had obvious #s - like over 40-60 HRs per season.
Pretty obvious when someone is on steriods - their face gets all round and puffy. Look at before and after pictures of Bonds, Clemens and all the others.
The reason Manny was traded away was that all ...[text shortened]... before this. They choose young, motivated players instead. Bay, Pedroia, Ellsbury, etc etc.
There is a good chance that Ortiz is not hitting because he is now off the juice. Bill Simmons (a huge Red Sox fan and a great writer) talks about how steriods tarnishes accomplishments (here in the 2004 context). He talks about how we chose to ignore his sudden magical rise upon reaching the Red Sox, his quick drop off when testing began, his friendship with many individuals who test positive. You can see his column on espn.com.
Originally posted by quackquack There is a good chance that Ortiz is not hitting because he is now off the juice. Bill Simmons (a huge Red Sox fan and a great writer) talks about how steriods tarnishes accomplishments (here in the 2004 context). He talks about how we chose to ignore his sudden magical rise upon reaching the Red Sox, his quick drop off when testing began, his friendship with many individuals who test positive. You can see his column on espn.com.
Also -- doesn't Ortiz have a face that's round and puffy? -- and no one's ever called him "Li'l Papi"
Actually - this is the real problem - everyone who achieves anything becomes suspect. There have been many players in the history of the game who have made unexpectedly rapid progress - and many who have had unexpectedly rapid declines -- but now, anything like that makes you a suspect.
Makes it harder to marvel at greatness -- makes it harder to route for a player to break a record.
I've decided that as far as I'm concerned, everyone is honest and clean until the evidence shows otherwise -- but I also believe that it's possible that any given player has been cheating - even the most wholesome players. Nothing here would shock me. Okay, maybe Cal Ripken...maybe....
Originally posted by Melanerpes Also -- doesn't Ortiz have a face that's round and puffy? -- and no one's ever called him "Li'l Papi"
Actually - this is the real problem - everyone who achieves anything becomes suspect. There have been many players in the history of the game who have made unexpectedly rapid progress - and many who have had unexpectedly rapid declines -- but now, anyt ...[text shortened]... most wholesome players. Nothing here would shock me. Okay, maybe Cal Ripken...maybe....
As much as you may want to have a presumption of innocence, the reality is that many of the great athletic accomplishment of recent times are performance enhanced. I find it interesting that Secretariat (thirty plus years later has all sorts of unbroken records) but human athletes somehow are consistently bigger and stronger.
Is Griffey next?
07 May '09 15:56
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