06 Apr 09
1 edit
I wait with baited breath for Jacques to get 3 more wickets in this series so he can reach the amazing milestone of the being the first player, in the history of the game, to score 10,000 runs and take 250 wickets in tests; 10,000 runs and take 250 wickets in ODIs and have a combined total of over 250 catches.
He has already proven himself the greatest all-rounder ever, sharing the honour with Sir Garfield Sobers, but this feat will propel him to the top of the list of The Greatest Cricket Player.
He still seems fit and enjoying the game, so I don't see why he can't actually make it to the all-time top 3 test run-scorers of all time (possibly number one, depending on when Tendulkar and Ponting retire) and the all-time top 5 ODI run-scorers before retiring.
What an amazing player and an inspiration to all cricket lovers.
06 Apr 09
Originally posted by CrowleyI'm not going down the road of disagreeing with you on this one. Statistically you are right he really is just that "a true all rounder" top of the lists.
I wait with baited breath for Jacques to get 3 more wickets in this series so he can reach the amazing milestone of the being the first player, in the history of the game, to score 10,000 runs and take 250 wickets in tests; 10,000 runs and take 250 wickets in ODIs and have a combined total of over 250 catches.
He has already proven himself the greatest al ...[text shortened]... scorers before retiring.
What an amazing player and an inspiration to all cricket lovers.
Kallis wouldn't get in my world 12 as he doesn't have the "x factor" ability to dominate with bat or ball and won't ever get in the category of Sobers with Bat or Hadlee with Ball.
One day we'll find someone who can intimidate with ball and destroy with bat.. a less beefy Botham perhaps. Sobers Botham and Hadlee would make my world 12 ahead or Jacques.
06 Apr 09
Originally posted by Tirau Dan"Won't ever get in the category of Sobers with Bat"? You are mistaken, buddy.
I'm not going down the road of disagreeing with you on this one. Statistically you are right he really is just that "a true all rounder" top of the lists.
Kallis wouldn't get in my world 12 as he doesn't have the "x factor" ability to dominate with bat or ball and won't ever get in the category of Sobers with Bat or Hadlee with Ball.
One day we'll ...[text shortened]... beefy Botham perhaps. Sobers Botham and Hadlee would make my world 12 ahead or Jacques.
He has basically the same record as Sobers with the bat. Sure, it was never all fireworks with Kallis, but he's just as dependable a batsmen as Sobers ever was.
Some people like spakly fireworks, but all fireworks needs glue to keep them together before the fuse is lit. Jacques has always been the glue.
Both players had different roles in their respective teams and both did amazing things.
Great, you have your 12 "x-factors" who can all fail miserably on a day.
I'll stick with Jacques and his boring 60 or 70 odd you can basically bank on.
07 Apr 09
1 edit
Originally posted by CrowleyI do actually agree but the great fire-workers of the ball didn't go out regularly, they were also very capable of playing long big innings.When sobers came out spectators were thrilled.
"Won't ever get in the category of Sobers with Bat"? You are mistaken, buddy.
He has basically the same record as Sobers with the bat. Sure, it was never all fireworks with Kallis, but he's just as dependable a batsmen as Sobers ever was.
Some people like spakly fireworks, but all fireworks needs glue to keep them together before the fuse is lit. Jacques n a day.
I'll stick with Jacques and his boring 60 or 70 odd you can basically bank on.
The last time we had this thread I think we went through some dream teams... quite a bit of fun. Pick a touring 13. Kallis in her? not in my book..sorry
1. Barry Richards
2. Wally Hammond
3. Donald Bradman
4. Garfield Sobers
5. Sashin Tendulkar
6. Viv Richards
7. Adam Gilchrist
8. Shane Warne
9. Malcolm Marshall
10. Joel Garner
11. Curtly Ambrose
12. Jim Laker (turning wicket.. in for tendulkar)
13 Richard Hadlee (moist air and a bit of green.. in for Tendulkar)
07 Apr 09
Originally posted by Tirau DanStart your own thread if you want to waffle on about the 'good olde days' and emotionally charged BS 'dream teams' - This thread is about the greatest cricketer to ever walk onto a grassy oval.
I do actually agree but the great fire-workers of the ball didn't go out regularly, they were also very capable of playing long big innings.When sobers came out spectators were thrilled.
The last time we had this thread I think we went through some dream teams... quite a bit of fun. Pick a touring 13. Kallis in her? not in my book..sorry
1. Ba ...[text shortened]... icket.. in for tendulkar)
13 Richard Hadlee (moist air and a bit of green.. in for Tendulkar)
Kallis has mastered the art of cricket, not just one speciality as many of the names on your list.
The only people not thrilled when Kallis strides out are his opponents.
08 Apr 09
Originally posted by CrowleyYou once listed him as greatest all rounder now it's greatest ever!!???
Start your own thread if you want to waffle on about the 'good olde days' and emotionally charged BS 'dream teams' - This thread is about the greatest cricketer to ever walk onto a grassy oval.
Kallis has mastered the art of cricket, not just one speciality as many of the names on your list.
The only people not thrilled when Kallis strides out are his opponents.
He's a wonderful cricketer, enjoy you stats and notions but you don't need to get all hoity toity and start blurting rubbish about waffling on about the days of old.
Are you quantifying now by saying he's the greatest present or are you saying he belongs in a team with the other greats in history?
He doesn't have the dominating character of one of the true greats in history and a 52 av with no double century doesn't cut the mustard except in your dreams.
We've just seen the last of Sachin Tendulkar down under.. a superb batsman possessed with the x factor... a great player.
08 Apr 09
1 edit
Originally posted by Tirau DanAbsolutely. The only all-rounder to get in the same class as Kallis was Sobers, with Botham probably in third.
You once listed him as greatest all rounder now it's greatest ever!!???
He's a wonderful cricketer, enjoy you stats and notions but you don't need to get all hoity toity and start blurting rubbish about waffling on about the days of old.
Are you quantifying now by saying he's the greatest present or are you saying he belongs in a team with the other in Tendulkar down under.. a superb batsman possessed with the x factor... a great player.
He has been the rock around the SA middle order for over a decade with one of the best (top 20) test averages in the world; one of ONLY 8 players, in the history of the game, with 10,000+ runs and a 50+ avg.
Yet you discount him as he never made a double ton? What a crock.
I'll take a guy who makes a hundred every 7th time he takes guard over a batsmen who makes 200 now and then any day...
You can waffle on about 'X-factor' and other bull, I'll look at the facts. They state that Kallis is the greatest cricketer ever, as he has totally conquered all aspects of the game and is also one of the best batsmen ever.
08 Apr 09
I tend to agree with Tirau Dan on this one. Sure, Kallis is statistically up there with the best in the game but he doesn't have that "X-factor" (as he puts it) Kallis has never been one to tear a bowling attack apart with the willow nor destroy a batting team with the ball. Also, from what I have seen, has never batted with the teams best interests in mind. Like, he goes about his batting but if the team needs him to step it up, he hasn't.. some commentators have noted this too.
Ian Botham and Gary Sobers both had the ability to tear teams apart with both bat and ball and instilled fear into opposing teams - unlike Kallis.
Make no mistake, Kallis is a very fine player but to me, and the general consensus here, is that he lacks the flair of many of the other fine batsmen in the world - eg. Tendulker, Lara, Ponting... all of which can destroy attacks on their day. Can Kallis? I wouldn't have thought so.. not with the same ferocity anyway.
I will be interested in the examples you provide which disagree with my points here 🙂
08 Apr 09
Originally posted by AussieGYou all seem to miss the point.
I tend to agree with Tirau Dan on this one. Sure, Kallis is statistically up there with the best in the game but he doesn't have that "X-factor" (as he puts it) Kallis has never been one to tear a bowling attack apart with the willow nor destroy a batting team with the ball. Also, from what I have seen, has never batted with the teams best interests in mind ...[text shortened]... .
I will be interested in the examples you provide which disagree with my points here 🙂
Whatever form of the game and whether it be fielding, batting or bowling - Kallis can do it and do it better than most other players.
Sure, he is not a frontline bowler, but 250 wickets in both formats? That is pretty damn good.
He has never been a very aggressive batsman - although he seems to be re-inventing himself now - but you don't make 10,000 runs at an average of 54 by just being ordinary. Actually, anything but.
Sobers never instilled 'fear' with his bowling and Beefy rarely with his batting, so your examples fall flat. Beefy played riskier cricket, and that's why he has an average that is more than 20 less than Kallis. Hell, even shaun Pollock has the same average.
You guys seem to need to see a guy play flashy shots and this shows me you have no proper understanding of team dynamics.
Kallis is what SA needed and he was happy to oblige. We've had the flashy batsmen play around him.
Anyway, all your opinions are moot.
The facts and stats speak loud and clear:
We are witnessing a legend of the game in our time, so enjoy the ride fellas - you'll be telling your grand-kids about this!
08 Apr 09
Originally posted by CrowleyI've loved cricket all my life from drawing cartwheels of Colin Cowdrey and Geoff Boycott batting against the windies on those gravel mine fields as a kid; to just this week watching the great Sachin Tendulkars last tour of NZ.
You all seem to miss the point.
Whatever form of the game and whether it be fielding, batting or bowling - Kallis can do it and do it better than most other players.
Sure, he is not a frontline bowler, but 250 wickets in both formats? That is pretty damn good.
He has never been a very aggressive batsman - although he seems to be re-inventing himself ...[text shortened]... game in our time, so enjoy the ride fellas - you'll be telling your grand-kids about this!
I love to waffle on about my cricket hero's though in polite circles it's known as waxing lyrical.
The acid test of greatness comes when you pick your best ever dream team. That's the way fans have done it for decades.
I like five batsmen an exciting dangerous all-rounder with bat or ball, a wickie who bats with gusto and four devastating bowlers.
Kallis does not quite make it into the top five with bat and certainly not with ball. As an all rounder he certainly is in the mould of Garfield Sobers as a batsman who bowls well but I would demand that my all-rounder be someone who can totally dominate. As a batting all-rounder his job would be to be the teams accelerator by pinch hitting and maybe hold up and innings if we're in the proverbial. This job doesn't require the best batsman it requires flare and competitiveness.
I wouldn't want someone who puts his personal stats before the team.
Like it or not his almost 120 tests have been on modern boring wickets which are produced to score on. He played them under modern rules which protect batsmen from injury.
If you want to insult someone try Wisden and I'll join you. This is the latest dream test team published in yesterdays Daily Telegraph from our so called cricket guru masters:-
Virender Sehwag
Graeme Smith
Ricky Ponting
Sachin Tendulkar
Kevin Pietersen
Shivnarine Chanderpaul
Mahendra Singh Dhoni
Harbhajan Singh
Mitchell Johnson
Dale Steyn
Zaheer Khan
I guess Wisden don't rate Kallis amongst today's greatest players either.
09 Apr 09
Originally posted by Tirau DanAgain, you seem to be to set in your ways. I'd pick a team around Kallis, because now you can get more aggressive top order batsmen, as you know you can back him to hold an innings together.
Kallis does not quite make it into the top five with bat and certainly not with ball. As an all rounder he certainly is in the mould of Garfield Sobers as a batsman who bowls well but I would demand that my all-rounder be someone who can totally dominate. As a batting all-rounder his job would be to be the teams accelerator by pinch hitting and maybe hold ...[text shortened]... ompetitiveness.
I wouldn't want someone who puts his personal stats before the team.
Puts his personal stats before the team? Please don't assume to know what goes on in his head.
09 Apr 09
Originally posted by Tirau DanAbsolutely. And unlike you and others who yearn to emotionally charged reverie in the days of yore, I will use the only REAL method we have to do that: Statistics.
The acid test of greatness comes when you pick your best ever dream team. That's the way fans have done it for decades.
The stats show that Kallis is the best all round cricketer ever. Period.
09 Apr 09
Originally posted by CrowleySo what do you think of Wisden leaving him out of their team?
Absolutely. And unlike you and others who yearn to emotionally charged reverie in the days of yore, I will use the only REAL method we have to do that: Statistics.
The stats show that Kallis is the best all round cricketer ever. Period.
Wisden are supposed to be the elite cricket gurus. They named a current world team and left Kallis out.
Thinking of cricket golden days does charge emotions. I hope it always will. My eldest has played club cricket here for 12 years he's more passionate than I am.
What do other cricketers think on the subject? This is just a round up from commentaries on this subject all of which are expert test players.
Fox sport- ""
Why doesn't Kallis receive the recognition his record deserves?
It comes down to how you play the game, according to a couple of Australians who have played with and against some of the world's best all-rounders.
In Keith Stackpole's mind, Kallis is a "selfish cricketer".
"You watch him bat and you are left with the feeling he bats for his average," said Stackpole, who scored seven tons in 43 Tests as an opener.
"And you ask yourself, 'Would I have wanted to play with him?'. The answer is no because he plays for himself.
"He doesn't rate against players such as Gary Sobers, Imran Khan, Keith Miller, Adam Gilchrist, Richard Hadlee, Kapil Dev and Ian Botham.
"Of that group, I would have to place Sobers at one, ahead of Imran, Miller, Hadlee and Gilchrist. Imran Khan was a super cricketer.
"And don't forget another South African in Clive Rice, who was hurt more by apartheid than any other great cricketer.
"Tony Greig is another who doesn't get the recognition he deserves.
"To me he was every bit as good as Ian Botham."
Former Australia quick Rodney Hogg played against Imran, Hadlee, Botham, Kapil, Malcolm Marshall and Rice and saw Sobers on two West Indies tours of Australia.
"Sobers has to be rated on top but I have enormous respect for Imran, and while Hadlee wasn't as good with the bat, he is clearly the best bowler of those all-rounders like Kapil, Botham and Marshall," Hogg said.
"Botham's shocking record against the great West Indies teams counts against him.
"Rice I played against on two tours of South Africa in the mid-'80s and remember him as someone who wanted to kill you with every ball.
"Kallis is a flat-track bully, who dishes it out to the minnows like Bangladesh and Zimbabwe but goes missing against the Australians.
"Sobers played more than half of his Tests against England and Australia, whereas Kallis has picked up around 1000 runs and 40 wickets against Zimbabwe and Bangladesh. They shouldn't count.
09 Apr 09
Originally posted by Tirau DanI love this one too.
Sobers played more than half of his Tests against England and Australia, whereas Kallis has picked up around 1000 runs and 40 wickets against Zimbabwe and Bangladesh. They shouldn't count.
If Bangladesh is so crap, why have Australia (the undisputed no.1 team at the time) lost against them?
Are we going to start reflecting on team strengths now? Because where do you stop? Do we go back and say "Wait. Some English players had the flu, so that test doesn't count for Sobers." etc. etc.?
Hmmm? The ICC thinks they're good enough, so that should be enough.
Also, any runs and wickets scored against a side with the likes of Johnson, the Flower brothers, Goodwin, Campbell, Streak and Olonga can't be discounted because Zim buggered up their cricket NOW.