Jim Rice

I think we'll see an awful lot of good but not great corner outfirlders come out claiming they should be in the hall of fame now that Rice is in...and many will have legitimate cases.

The Hall of Fame is nothing more than man's attempt to remove objectivity from the game via politics. As a result, I say who really cares if Jim Bob makes it? In fact, being a Reds fan I say the Hall can kiss the city of Cincinnati's blessed assurance for what they did to Pete!!!

Originally posted by whodey
The Hall of Fame is nothing more than man's attempt to remove objectivity from the game via politics. As a result, I say who really cares if Jim Bob makes it? In fact, being a Reds fan I say the Hall can kiss the city of Cincinnati's blessed assurance for what they did to Pete!!!

If you are a Cincy fan, here is a trivia question for you. Johnny Bench, IMO, the greatest catcher who ever strapped on the gear, was the second selection made by the Reds the year he was drafted. Who did the Reds draft with their first pick that year?

For the record, I followed Cincy quite a lot. I loved Sparky Anderson and the Big Red Machine. I actually got to know Pete Rose pretty well. He was a really nice guy before all of the press and microscopes hardened him. It is a shame too, because he was a player with slightly better than average skills and little speed who made himself into one of the all time great players through guts and determination. We spent many hours talking baseball. He ate it, drank it, and lived the game. It was all he wanted. In the end, it cost him his marriage to Carolyn and it put distance between himself and Pete Jr.

I was scouted by the Reds heavily in my college days. I began to think of their scout, Norm Uhl, as a second father since he saw more of my games than my own father did. I thought I was going to be a Red until I blew out my pitching shoulder and that was all she wrote.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
Al Oliver was in the twilight of his career when he played in Montreal, and he never displayed much power. He was a good gap hitter and a good average hitter though. Lynn, Evan and Greenwell all struck more fear in opposing pitchers than Oliver did. Fisk and Carter were about equal. Yaz offset Raines offense. Plus, in the NL, the pitcher hit 9th while D ...[text shortened]... t. As I said before, the best of all three was Dale Murphy and he just left the game too early.

Lynn and Greenwell played at completely different times in Boston. Rice probably had a better over all lineup, although certainly did not have the speed Dawson had in his.
"Strinking fear" is a pretty ridiculous concept (I think Dwight Evans and Al Oliver who had a .300 career batting average were good players) but no one feared them.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
[b]If you are a Cincy fan, here is a trivia question for you. Johnny Bench, IMO, the greatest catcher who ever strapped on the gear, was the second selection made by the Reds the year he was drafted. Who did the Reds draft with their first pick that year?

I would have to agree about Bench, by far the greatest catcher I've ever had the pleasure to watch in my 50 plus years of following baseball.

In answer to your question.....does Bernie Carbo ring a bell?

Originally posted by Chaswray
I would have to agree about Bench, by far the greatest catcher I've ever had the pleasure to watch in my 50 plus years of following baseball.

In answer to your question.....does Bernie Carbo ring a bell?

Correct!!

Originally posted by quackquack
Lynn and Greenwell played at completely different times in Boston. Rice probably had a better over all lineup, although certainly did not have the speed Dawson had in his.
"Strinking fear" is a pretty ridiculous concept (I think Dwight Evans and Al Oliver who had a .300 career batting average were good players) but no one feared them.

I realize that Lynn and Greenwell played at different times. Lynn played at the beginning of Rice's career and Greenwell at the end. Dewey Evans was a very solid clutch hitter who had decent pop and was a solid RBI man. I would like to see the list of pitchers who hoped they could face him in a clutch situation...it would be a very short list to be sure. As for Dawson's speed...that was very early on because his average suffered tremendously as his knees were bruatlized by the astroturf. It was painful watching him try to run for the latter years of his career.

Rice has a short career and you then laugh at his totals. Dawson has a longer career and then you talk about what it would have been had his knees been better. It is just inconsistent.

Originally posted by quackquack
Rice has a short career and you then laugh at his totals. Dawson has a longer career and then you talk about what it would have been had his knees been better. It is just inconsistent.

Rice's career was not short...Dale Murphy's was short. And Murphy was a much better player than Rice. He was a better pure hitter, he was better defensively, he won more MVP's and he deserves the HOF more than Rice. Period. Dawson played for a sorry team his entire career in Montreal (although they had a couple of years where they became marginal). Dawson did have bad knees and he was guilty of hanging around longer than he should have. My arguements are precise and accurate. Thank you very much.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
If you are a Cincy fan, here is a trivia question for you. Johnny Bench, IMO, the greatest catcher who ever strapped on the gear, was the second selection made by the Reds the year he was drafted. Who did the Reds draft with their first pick that year?

For the record, I followed Cincy quite a lot. I loved Sparky Anderson and the Big Red Machine. I ac ...[text shortened]... hought I was going to be a Red until I blew out my pitching shoulder and that was all she wrote.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
If you are a Cincy fan, here is a trivia question for you. Johnny Bench, IMO, the greatest catcher who ever strapped on the gear, was the second selection made by the Reds the year he was drafted. Who did the Reds draft with their first pick that year?


it's amazing how hard it is to predict who will be great when draft picks are being made - every team had the chance to draft Bench and passed.

But then you have Mike Piazza - the greatest offensive catcher to play the game by a mile - who was drafted in the 62nd round.

Originally posted by Melanerpes
Originally posted by shortcircuit
[b]If you are a Cincy fan, here is a trivia question for you. Johnny Bench, IMO, the greatest catcher who ever strapped on the gear, was the second selection made by the Reds the year he was drafted. Who did the Reds draft with their first pick that year?


it's amazing how hard it is to predict who will be ...[text shortened]... the greatest offensive catcher to play the game by a mile - who was drafted in the 62nd round.[/b]

Worse than that....Piazza was drafted as a favor to Mike's father because Tommy Lasorda was his godfather. The Dodgers had no other players they were looking at, so they drafted him.

As far as great catchers go, Piazza was a great hitter who played at catcher. Johnny Bench was a great catcher who was also a great hitter and the greatest catcher of all time. Yogi Berra also has to get some consideration as well, but he was a great bat who caught and transformed himself into a pretty decent catcher. Carlton Fisk was another great receiver who had a good bat.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
Rice's career was not short...Dale Murphy's was short. And Murphy was a much better player than Rice. He was a better pure hitter, he was better defensively, he won more MVP's and he deserves the HOF more than Rice. Period. Dawson played for a sorry team his entire career in Montreal (although they had a couple of years where they became marginal). Daws ...[text shortened]... ound longer than he should have. My arguements are precise and accurate. Thank you very much.

Fact: both Rice and Murphy played 14 full years.

Rice was a MUCH better hitter than Murphy he has almost 200 more career RBIs and 340 more hits. Murphy has .265 career batting average. Rice has a career batting average of .298. Both played in good hitting parks but Atlanta is probably a better hitters park than Fenway.

The voters have it right when the have Rice is Murphy not.

Originally posted by quackquack
Fact: both Rice and Murphy played 14 full years.

Rice was a MUCH better hitter than Murphy he has almost 200 more career RBIs and 340 more hits. Murphy has .265 career batting average. Rice has a career batting average of .298. Both played in good hitting parks but Atlanta is probably a better hitters park than Fenway.

The voters have it right when the have Rice is Murphy not.

Look at ALL the numbers, not just the selected offensive numbers. BTW, Murphy hit 16 more HR's than did Rice. Second, two of Murphy's seasons were partial seasons due to injury.

Here is an interesting comparison for you:

MVP awards.......Murphy -2.....Rice -1

Silver Slugger Awards.....Murphy -4.....Rice -2

All Star Games......Murphy -7......Rice -8

Gold Glove Awards....Murphy -5....Rice - 0

The game is about complete players. As I said before, Rice had a much better supporting cast around him than did Murphy. Second, Murphy could play defense and Rice was a brick. Murphy's numbers compare quite favorably to Rice's and he deserves the HOF more than does Rice.....Period!!

For an a corner outfielder no one is looking at defense unless the offensive numbers are close and between Rice and Murphy. Both played the same amount of time Rice had a career average of .298; Murphy had a .265. Until his last year plus the 56 games Rice played is the year after he had a higher batting average every single year than Murphy's career batting average. Of all stats batting average has the least to do with line up.
An outfielder with a short career and a .265 batting average should be enough to exclude Murphy.

Silver Sluggers obviously are a joke as Rice was a top 5 MVP candidate six times. Other than his two MVP years Murphy never finished higher than 7th. Rice was year in year out a dominant player; Murphy wasn't. Haller of Fame voters correctly recognize these differences and to claim Murphy was better is simply outlandish.

Originally posted by quackquack
For an a corner outfielder no one is looking at defense unless the offensive numbers are close and between Rice and Murphy. Both played the same amount of time Rice had a career average of .298; Murphy had a .265. Until his last year plus the 56 games Rice played is the year after he had a higher batting average every single year than Murphy's career ...[text shortened]... ers correctly recognize these differences and to claim Murphy was better is simply outlandish.

Uhhh...Murphy hasn't run for 15 years yet...Rice did. We'll see what happens. Truth be told, Bert Blyleven, Jack Morris and Tony Oliva should have been in by now as well. The voters DON'T get it right MANY times.