1. Joined
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    22 Oct '07 00:26
    Originally posted by Maxwell Smart
    Without taking the time to read this entire thread, let me just add this from a Sox fan. Joe Torre is a class act, and I'm glad that he walked away from the table with his dignity intact. It wasn't about the money, he was being insulted...and frankly I'd be surprised if he took any offer from the Steinbrenner's after the way George disrespected him during the ALDS (which is nothing unusual for Mr. Steinbrenner). Best of luck to Joe Torre.
    Sometimes I think the team looses in the playoffs just to spite old George. 😛
  2. Standard memberPhlabibit
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    22 Oct '07 01:11
    Originally posted by Maxwell Smart
    Without taking the time to read this entire thread, let me just add this from a Sox fan. Joe Torre is a class act, and I'm glad that he walked away from the table with his dignity intact. It wasn't about the money, he was being insulted...and frankly I'd be surprised if he took any offer from the Steinbrenner's after the way George disrespected him during the ALDS (which is nothing unusual for Mr. Steinbrenner). Best of luck to Joe Torre.
    Without taking the time to read your post, I said all that.

    P-
  3. Standard memberno1marauder
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    22 Oct '07 21:351 edit
    Originally posted by Phlabibit
    I just think it was low class for Stainbrainer to make an ultimatum as he did with the ALDS on the line. If he hadn't said that, he probably could have just said, "Ok, time for us to move on." I believe many of the Yankee players were upset about that being said.

    Once George realized how insulting that was and the feel it gave in the club house he had th how Cashman brings in all these huge names and all but ignores his farm system.

    P-
    I gave my reasons and you've offered nothing to dispute them.

    The Yankee farm system this year came up with Joba, Hughes and Kennedy who are going to be the nucleus of the rotation for years to come. It's OK with me if they fire Cashman too though; he's made plenty of blunders (like not negotiating with Mo and Posada in the last off-season). But Torre has not accomplished what was expected of him when he got his last contract; to call a contract offer, that would have left him by far as the highest paid manager in baseball an "insult" is ridiculous.
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    22 Oct '07 21:59
    Cashman certainly did not trade Jaba, Kennedy or Hughes (Although the jury certainly is still out on how good they are. Hughes was sort of a disapppointment, in the playoffs Jaba certainly wasn't Mo and Kennedy did not even make the post season roster) when he made moves like trade for Abreau. That in the last 30 years of Yankees operations is significant. He also got prospects for Sheffield and Randy Johnson -- it is only fair to see how they work out and not just assume one set of prospects will be great and the ones Cashman acquired won't.
    The Yankees has no obligation to bring back Torre but it is insulting to threaten a guy during a playoff series, then cut the guy's pay and give him incentives (as if he does not try) when they never gave incentives before. The Yankees systematically ignore that Torre kept the team together when they were decimated by injuries, integrated young players and made the playoffs for the 12th year in a row when every other team in baseball a one year streak or less. The Yankees were not nearly this successful before Torre and unfortunately will probably not be nearly this succesful after Torre either.
  5. Standard memberno1marauder
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    22 Oct '07 22:14
    Originally posted by myteamtrulystinks
    Cashman certainly did not trade Jaba, Kennedy or Hughes (Although the jury certainly is still out on how good they are. Hughes was sort of a disapppointment, in the playoffs Jaba certainly wasn't Mo and Kennedy did not even make the post season roster) when he made moves like trade for Abreau. That in the last 30 years of Yankees operations is s ...[text shortened]... before Torre and unfortunately will probably not be nearly this succesful after Torre either.
    Like most people, you confusing two issues. There is the Steinbrenner statement during the playoffs AND then there is the contract offer. If you want to insist that it's "insulting" for the boss of an organization to make statements regarding that organization, fine. But Torre said nothing about Steinbrenner's statement in his press conference; he said the contract offer was an "insult". That remains a ridiculous assertion since he would still have been the highest paid manager by far even if the Yankees didn't make the playoffs.

    Torre "kept the team together" is BS. When they were decimated by injuries, esp. to their pitching staff early in the season, they stunk. When the injured players got healthy and when Clemens was added replacing Igawa and other pitchers who were going awful, they started to win. The Yankees made the playoffs the year before Torre was hired and had the best record in baseball in 1994 (the strike year) AND then got Jeter and had Rivera emerge. Those were very good breaks for Torre, who had had a sub-.500 record as a manager before he got the Yankee job.

    The Yankee management is not content with disasters in the first round of the playoffs three years in a row and a historic collapse in the ALCS the year before that. Nor should they be.
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    22 Oct '07 22:34
    Originally posted by Phlabibit
    Without taking the time to read your post, I said all that.

    P-
    How do you know? 😛
  7. Standard memberPhlabibit
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    23 Oct '07 01:21
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    I gave my reasons and you've offered nothing to dispute them.

    The Yankee farm system this year came up with Joba, Hughes and Kennedy who are going to be the nucleus of the rotation for years to come. It's OK with me if they fire Cashman too though; he's made plenty of blunders (like not negotiating with Mo and Posada in the last off-season). ...[text shortened]... uld have left him by far as the highest paid manager in baseball an "insult" is ridiculous.
    It was an insult, what is to dispute? Torre moved on, what do YOU care? You only offer a pay-cut when you feel someone is doing a poor job.

    You just go on thinking it was a 'fair offer', it's not the first point you've been dead wrong on.

    P-
  8. Standard memberPhlabibit
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    23 Oct '07 01:24
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Like most people, you confusing two issues. There is the Steinbrenner statement during the playoffs AND then there is the contract offer. If you want to insist that it's "insulting" for the boss of an organization to make statements regarding that organization, fine. But Torre said nothing about Steinbrenner's statement in his press conference; he said t ...[text shortened]... in a row and a historic collapse in the ALCS the year before that. Nor should they be.
    "You were nothing before my daddy gave you a job, my daddy took a lot of heat for giving you a job! Whaaaa! I'm a little brat!"

    Nice, Yankees will go far now that 'daddy' handed over the team.

    P-
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    23 Oct '07 02:51
    THe yankee management does not give enough credit to 12 straight years in the playoffs when everyone else has 1 or zero. The Redsox had a lot of talent but basically quit after the yankees five game sweep last year. The Yankees did not lose because Torre managed poorly. They had many opportunities in game one, got three hits in an extra inning game in game two, they got two awful starts from Wang, Jeter and A-rod did not hit, Jaba did not pitch well, Clemens pitched awfully and Musina was onlly slightly better. How this Torre's fault is somewhat bewildering to me.
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    23 Oct '07 02:54
    Originally posted by myteamtrulystinks
    THe yankee management does not give enough credit to 12 straight years in the playoffs when everyone else has 1 or zero. The Redsox had a lot of talent but basically quit after the yankees five game sweep last year. The Yankees did not lose because Torre managed poorly. They had many opportunities in game one, got three hits in an extra inning g ...[text shortened]... lly and Musina was onlly slightly better. How this Torre's fault is somewhat bewildering to me.
    George is just upset that he spends more money on his team than any else in professional sports and has trouble making it to the World Series despite making the playoffs year after year after year after year..... He simply has to blame someone so why not the manager? Who else is he going to blame? All of his players are All-Stars.
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    23 Oct '07 03:16
    If every player on the Yankees is an All star (which isn't true) it is because they play in a division with teams like the Redsox (who pretty much match up man for man).
  12. Standard memberno1marauder
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    24 Oct '07 17:581 edit
    Originally posted by myteamtrulystinks
    THe yankee management does not give enough credit to 12 straight years in the playoffs when everyone else has 1 or zero. The Redsox had a lot of talent but basically quit after the yankees five game sweep last year. The Yankees did not lose because Torre managed poorly. They had many opportunities in game one, got three hits in an extra inning g ...[text shortened]... lly and Musina was onlly slightly better. How this Torre's fault is somewhat bewildering to me.
    Another person who gives Torre credit for the wins but no blame for the losses. Torre started Wang on three days rest in Game 4 after his poor start in Game 1; that was brilliant. They won the game Clemens started even though he left it with an injury. Mussina pitched OK under the circumstances. Did you watch the series at all? It's true the Yankees didn't hit well, but something seems to go wrong every playoff lately under Torre. Why he should keep getting paid more than any other manager to consistently fail in the playoffs is beyond me.
  13. Standard memberno1marauder
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    24 Oct '07 18:031 edit
    Originally posted by Phlabibit
    It was an insult, what is to dispute? Torre moved on, what do YOU care? You only offer a pay-cut when you feel someone is doing a poor job.

    You just go on thinking it was a 'fair offer', it's not the first point you've been dead wrong on.

    P-
    Yes, he didn't accomplish the job he was paid a record contract for, so he was offered a lower base salary. He admitted that in his prior contract, he would have got a $1 million "incentive" if he won the World Series, but now tying more of his salary to performance is an "insult"? Absurd.

    As I already said, I wouldn't have offered him anything. But his crying about this supposed "insult" shows how out of touch with present day reality Clueless Joe is.

    EDIT: Now Torre says in an interview with Bob Costas that he would have accepted the "insult" IF he had gotten a 2nd year.
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    24 Oct '07 18:28
    Yeah, I watch the games you fool and I don't think they lost because of Torre. Wang did not pitch well, but everyone would have said he's a sinkerballer and your best pitcher he'l be better if he's a little tired. The Yankees got 5 hits is game one, and three hits in 11 innnings in game two. It is pretty clear why they lost and it is has nothing to do with Torre. I doesn't really matter what I think and it certainly does not matter what his critics think but Torre will go into the hall of fame as a manager based on his accomplishment in pinstripes. I wouldn't offer that guy a paycut and we'll see next year what Mattingly and his zero experience can do when he can't just insert himself in the lineup.
  15. Standard memberno1marauder
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    24 Oct '07 18:44
    Originally posted by myteamtrulystinks
    Yeah, I watch the games you fool and I don't think they lost because of Torre. Wang did not pitch well, but everyone would have said he's a sinkerballer and your best pitcher he'l be better if he's a little tired. The Yankees got 5 hits is game one, and three hits in 11 innnings in game two. It is pretty clear why they lost and it is has nothing ...[text shortened]... attingly and his zero experience can do when he can't just insert himself in the lineup.
    "Everyone" said no such thing, but Torre did. Nonetheless, Wang hadn't pitched on 3 days rest all year and often got more than 4 days rest. http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/playerGameLog?categoryId=288295

    Torre may go into the Hall of Fame because he was lucky enough to manage the Yankees at a time that some Hall of Fame players emerged. Joe certainly wouldn't have made the HoF based on his body of work as a manager before the Yankees (sub .500 with teams that all got better shortly after he left).
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