Liverpool - The Greatest?

Originally posted by Angry Boy
What's all this 14/15 year crap? LFC were contesting the league every season from 63 to 91. Winning 13 titles in 28 years. And what does it matter anyway? Surely the number of trophies won is more important than how evenly you spread them out accross your history? This thread's a poor wind-up even by your standards.

BTW - HALF of ManUtd's title's have come in a 14 year period.

No one on the thread is disrespecting Liverpool as the most sucessful club in English football history, the facts speak for themselves.

What we all want to know is how do Liverpool supporters expect Liverpool to get back to the top again.

Noone outside of LFC can ever see it happening again.

Part of the reason we believe is that you are not that big of a club any more, more of a sucessful cup team.

How are Liverpool going to win back the championship against Manchetser United, Chelasea and an improving Arsenal?

Originally posted by Rooney Once a Blue
No one on the thread is disrespecting Liverpool as the most sucessful club in English football history, the facts speak for themselves.

What we all want to know is how do Liverpool supporters expect Liverpool to get back to the top again.

Noone outside of LFC can ever see it happening again.

Part of the reason we believe is that you are n ...[text shortened]... going to win back the championship against Manchetser United, Chelasea and an improving Arsenal?

Oh well, looks like there is nobody out there to tell us why LFC will be the greatest football team again.

To try and give the thread an even balance I will say that Liverpool is one of the greatest cities in England.

There has been a lot of redevelopment of the area, especially in the docks and the place is full of nice friendly people wearing blue shirts.

I think Liverpool's revenue streams from their excellent CL campaigns this last two years can make the difference. The top two have an unhealthy stranglehold on the Premiership at the moment, but I wouldn't rule out a challenge from Benitez next year. His chances are dwindling, though; the days when the Liverpool Board would stay local to Roy Evans through thin and thin are definitely gone now.

When Ferguson departs, there is going to be a window of opportunity for the rest of the big sides to encroach. It looks like Spurs might do it next year, and there will be consequences for one of the top four managers if Jol succeeds.

Originally posted by Amaurote
I think Liverpool's revenue streams from their excellent CL campaigns this last two years can make the difference. The top two have an unhealthy stranglehold on the Premiership at the moment, but I wouldn't rule out a challenge from Benitez next year. His chances are dwindling, though; the days when the Liverpool Board would stay local to Roy Evans through ...[text shortened]... it next year, and there will be consequences for one of the top four managers if Jol succeeds.

Very interesting post.

I agree when Sir Alex leaves, United will need a major personallity to continue, otherwise it could all fall apart and players may leave.

Unless a manager like o'Neill, Capello, Keane (if he continues to improve) or Ancelotti talkes over then Manchester United could fall apart.

I agree Tottenham are showing all the signs that they could become a major force.

As for Liverpool, the future remains uncertain.
Say they buy Eto for 30m and Kaka for 30m.
There is no guarantee this would work, look at other big players that have come to England and not performed, Shevchenko, Ballack, Veron.

I think Liverpool have the best chance if they sign Tevez, he has proven he can play at the top level in England, Liverpool should go all out for Tevez (I hope they do not).

And you are right Benitez needs time.
Pires, Henry, Bergkamp and Ronaldo needed 2 or 3 seasons to show how good they could be.
Will Rafa get the chance?

Originally posted by Angry Boy
League Champions (Premiership for the SKY generation)

LFC 18
MUFC 16

European Cup (Champions League)

LFC 5
MUFC 2

FA Cup

MUFC 11
LFC 7

League Cup

LFC 7
MUFC 2

LFC 3 UEFA cups
MUFC 1 Cup Winners Cup

The greatest? Facts say it's LFC. End of story.

where are liverpools Super Cups??

Originally posted by asromacalcio
[b]Liverpool are the most successful English club ever, discuss.

To respond to ASROMACALICO first post…
1 We can’t win the League because we’re not good enough. The best team wins the league every year. No exceptions.
2 Every team has hot streaks. No one can be successful all the time.

Using your 14 year example our best 14 period was 1976 to 1990.
During that time Liverpool won 10 leagues (Runners Up in other 4 years), 4 European Cups (1 Runners Up), 2 FA Cups (2 Runners Up), 1 UEFA Cup, 4 League Cups (2 Runners Up). That’s 21 golds and 9 silvers.
In 1977 we won League, Europe, and lost FA Cup Final – almost a Treble
In 1984 we won League, Europe and League Cup – a Treble, though not as good as the 1999 one because FA Cup > League Cup no question.

In our best 14 years United won 4 FA Cups (2 Runners Up). They were also Runners Up in League twice and League Cup once. That’s 4 golds and 5 silvers.

United’s best 14 year period runs 1993 to 2007
During that time United won 9 Leagues (3 Runners Up), 1 European Cup, 4 FA Cups (3 Runners Up), 1 League Cup (2 Runners Up). That’s 15 golds and 8 silvers.

During United best period Liverpool have won 1 European Cup (1 Runners Up), 2 FA Cups (1 Runners Up), 1 UEFA Cup, 3 League Cups (1 Runners Up) and were Runners Up in League once. That’s 7 golds and 4 silvers.

So all that can be summarised by saying:

Liverpool hot streak > United hot streak
Liverpool trophies while being rubbish > United trophies while being rubbish.

Originally posted by Rooney Once a Blue
[b]Liverpool will continue to be the most sucessful club until Mancester United reach 19 Championship victories, hopefully in the next 5 years.

Do you also think that United will reach 6 European Cups within 5 years?

Originally posted by Rooney Once a Blue

Although Liverpool are the most sucesssful, this is tainted slightly in my opinion because they never managed to win The Treble, even at a time when 11 English men with a pulse could probably form a team to get to at least the 1/4 finals of the European Cup (ala Villa and Forest).

As a Liverpool fan I’m worried about being passed by United in League titles. United are on a great run and are a better team than Liverpool. I do think we’ll win a title within 5 years though.

A Treble is winning 3 trophies. The best Treble ever done was done by United in 1999. There were 2 other trebles in English football history – 1984 which was a close second and 2001 which wasn’t. Both these other Trebles were achieved by Liverpool.

I do think it’s a disgraceful comment to undermining a fabulous Forest team by saying any team with a pulse could get to ¼ finals of European Cup. The 1979 team was brilliant – Shilton, Anderson, Clark, McGovern, Robertson, Woodcock, Francis off top of my head. 1980 was almost as good.

The Villa team was not as talented but look what they achieved! They were outplayed by an excellent Bayern Munich team in the final but still won. Remind you of anyone? They had some very good players – Spink played a blinder, Cowans, Mortimer, Shaw, Morley all very good.

If this was at a time when all you needed to win a European Trophy was a pulse, then why didn’t United win a UEFA or Cup Winners Cup?

Originally posted by Rooney Once a Blue

1.
They havn't looked like winning the league in the last 17 years for 3 reasons, I think:
- They can't buy the best like they did in the 70s and 80s, even now IF their new owners show some money it will only put them on a par with Manchester United financially and still way behind Chelsea.
- They have not had a manager like Ferguson or Wenge ...[text shortened]... rs they had, Dalglish, Souness, Evans, Houllier and Beneithus are just not in the same class.[/b]

We haven’t looked like winning League for 17 years. We have bought badly and tend to buy good players and turn them into muck. Our only good forwards have been home-grown – Fowler and Owen. The last forward Liverpool bought who was a success was Dalglish! We need to buy better. Hopefully this summer we can do that.

True, Wenger and Ferguson are better managers than we have had. I have reservations about how good Rafa is. He is a proven European manager but until he assembles a team that wins a League then he will be doubted. I hope he proves us both wrong with his purchases over summer and his commitment from game 1 next season to win every game. When he won league in Spain with Valencia they lost 6 games. If an English side loses 6 games they will not win the League. Simple as.

If London is the major attraction then Liverpool and United are in same boat there and ye have won Leagues. Our stadium is absolutely fantastic and I’ll be sorry when we move. I’ve been at OT too and it’s very impressive but oh so quiet in comparison… Finish up those prawns lads!

Obviously if US owners invest heavily it’ll help. United are US owned too but your takeover is a lot more debt funded. Will they have patience? Who knows? Like asking if Glazers will have next years repayments that.

Originally posted by Rooney Once a Blue

2.
Unfortunately for Liverpool two of the greatest managers ever seen in the English game arrrived at Manchester United and Arsenal during the early stages of thier transitional period.
The managers they had, Dalglish, Souness, Evans, Houllier and Beneithus are just not in the same class.[/b]

True. Wenger and Ferguson would both go into any fair football fans Top 5 managers list along with Paisley, Clough and Shankly.Argue over positions within that Top 5 among yourselves.

Dalglish was a good manager but left us in lurge. Souness was a disgrace who seemed to have a thing against playing Irish players and off-loaded some excellent players coming into their prime. Evans was boot room but not up to it. Houillier was a failure and Benitez has started promisingly but we need a League.

Originally posted by Rooney Once a Blue
I am also still waiting for an explanation as to why Liverpool were never able to win The Treble.

I think its becasue they are not the biggest club in England.

Your Treble was a fantastic achievement by an excellent team. No question. However you should have humility to admit that there was some luck involved in winning both cups. Think of Bergkamps penalty, being 1-0 in OT with 5 minutes to go in FA Cup 4th round (I was at that game L), being outplayed by Bayern in final etc.

Liverpool, as I have pointed out in another response have 2 Trebles. Neither is as good as the 1999 one but a Treble is winning 3 trophies in the 1 year and we have done that twice.

Originally posted by Rooney Once a Blue

1. The most sucessful, yes because of a good spell in the 70's and 80's, but not the biggest.

2. Manchester United still got bigger crowds when they were in the old 2nd division and winning nothing than Liverpool did.[/b]

1. As pointed out to ASROMA our hot streak yielded more trophies than yours has thus far.

2. Although technically true it’s a bit rich saying this. In 1975 United were in Division 2 and had average attendance of 48,388 (taken from http://www.red11.org/mufc/stats/attendances.htm) The capacity of Anfield was 46850 at that time so we couldn’t possibly match your figure.

Originally posted by Rooney Once a Blue
The 7-1 victory was quite unbelievable and just adds the history of Manchester United that makes them the biggest club in England and most followed club around the world.
They entertaint as well as win games.

Not true. Guinness Book of Records 2006 has Benfica has the club with most paying members of fan club in the world. Most supported club in the world in terms of numbers is Real Madrid. United will catch them if they continue to milk China (appartently 28 million Chinese support United!) and rest of Asia for supporters, but they haven’t yet.

Originally posted by asromacalcio
Before and since, there's less to shout about.

Juventus have won I think 27 Italian titles. They'll be in the hunt next year just wait and see. Or maybe they'll have to wait 16 years.

Personally I can't see that. They are too good![/b]

United waited how long between between 1967 and 1993?

Originally posted by Rooney Once a Blue

Liverpool have not been competitive for 17 years, thats why you are not the bigest club or even a big club on the world stage.

Saying we are not a big club on world stage is just daft mate. If we’re so small then why do United need to catch them in all trophies bar the FA Cup?

Seriously, most of your posts have at least been grounded in reality but Liverpool not a big club? Cop on.